Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 13-04-2016, 09:03   #16
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Hailey, ID
Boat: Gulf 32 & Nimble 20
Posts: 348
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

The two big pros for centerboard (as opposed to swing keel) are (in my mind) that you can have more ballast than is manageable if it's only your swing keel providing ballast, and IF you lose your centerboard your boat still has its ballast and will be (hopefully) stable enough to get back to port under power... if all your ballast is in your swing keel and you lose that keel... gulp...

Quote:
Originally Posted by OS2Dude View Post
Con is the weight is not as low, so the boat can be more tender in a breeze.
__________________

__________________
basssears is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 09:08   #17
Senior Cruiser
 
nautical62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,264
Images: 12
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

I've owned or managed both trailer sailors with swing keels and a couple trailerable heavier keelboats such as a Westerly Centaur.

Swing keel trailer sailors are designed with towing, launching and frequent de-rigging in mind. Generally speaking they are faster and easier to rig, easier to launch off the trailer sit lower when towing, tend to be lighter, and can be launched on most ramps. Trailer sailors are often more tender (lighter) and a swing keel brings in additional systems that can fail and need maintenance. A swing keel rarely offers the ballast of a fixed keel boat. Generally speaking they are designed with protected waters in mind.

My Westery Centaur (26 feet) in contrast felt like and sailed like a heavier displacement keelboat. The trailer and boat together weighted 10,000 lbs. It was much harder to rig, much more cumbersome to trailer more difficult to rig and had many challenges to launch and retrieve. There was no way you could float the boat off even on a steep ramp without a long tongue extension bar. It required a long ramp with deep water to launch. I sailed it fairly comfortably in 8 foot seas and 30 knots. That's the difference.

I've seen people sail trailer sailors to the Bahamas. It can be done, but I've also seen many turn back or keep their trip short and slow.

My feeling having done it, is a heavy displacement trailerable boat is the worst of both worlds more than the best of both worlds. You need a heavy duty tow vehicle, will have a boat that is difficult to launch off a trailer, but still small for extended cruising. In my mind, at that point it's better to go bigger, and forget trailer ability, which is what I eventually did.
__________________

__________________
nautical62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 09:21   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
Cheechako's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Skagit City, WA
Posts: 19,365
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

A Chrysler 26 is a great boat. A friend of mine had one years ago. Nice stiff boat for a trailerable with almost a 50% ballast ratio. I've seen them for $3500 with trailer.
__________________
"I spent most of my money on Booze, Broads and Boats. The rest I wasted" - Elmore Leonard











Cheechako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 11:40   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Antioch CA
Boat: Cal 39
Posts: 189
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

For what it's worth, I bought a Catalina 22 in 1973 and sailed and raced her primarily in San Francisco Bay, though I also had it in the ocean, trailered her to many lakes and bays in California, Oregon and Washington, and even into Canada. And I've sailed many other C22s, including some with fixed keels. The swing keel. though weighing less than the fixed keel, is deeper and stiffer when down. For those that don't know, in San Francisco Bay small craft warnings go up sometime in about June and stay up until sometime about mid September. In 1980 I gave her to my son and he still sails her. She will sail with the keel up, though she makes considerable leeway in winds above 10 knots.
The keel hinge pin should be checked and replaced if necessary. I've not talked to anyone that had the lifting pennant fail and I was commodore of the C22 National Sailing Association in about 1974, and Chief Measurer for a few years after that.
The keel is cast iron and will rust if not painted or tared.
If you plan to moor the boat the hull and keel should have bottom paint, the rudder too - or unshipped except while the boat is being used.
Two adults and two kids is fine while sailing or motoring, crowded when spending the night, but doable. I've done two adults and three kids many times, including from Santa Monica to Catalina Island.
If you have any questions concerning the Catalina 22 I'll be glad to answer them.
__________________
secrabtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 13:05   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Michigan
Boat: Chrysler 26
Posts: 22
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

I agree that the Chrysler 26 is a great boat. It certainly falls into the category of heavy displacement trailerable boat, but I would argue it is the best of both worlds, not the worst. I love having a sturdy boat that can handle a good bit of ugly weather, and I love being able to keep it in my yard for free. Different strokes for different folks.
The Chrysler does not have a keel lock down, where my old Venture 222 did. The venture keel was shaped like the blade of a butter knife, with a hinge at one end, and the cable at the other. If you got knocked upside down (God forbid) and it fell into the keel pocket, it would no doubt destroy the boat. Thus it had a lockdown pin, and I always used it. The Chrysler keel is a bit of an L shape with the pivot moved more toward the middle. I don't get the feeling it would fall with as much vengeance if knocked upside down (I could be wrong). The Chrysler keel is also made to wedge into the pocket when down, making it less likely to flop around, or fall backwards if knocked upside down. The pocket is also very heavily built. If you do want to lock the keel down, it would not be hard to drill a hole through the keel pocket, and stick a pin through. You would just need worry about getting the location right for locking, and preventing water ingress. Again, these boats were not made to cross the oceans, so unless doing that, it is almost surely a non issue.
As for launching, I launch without a tongue extension. I have to put the back wheels in the water a bit, but have had no problems.
I hope to move up to a bigger boat some day, perhaps even living aboard for a time, but for now a trailer sailer is perfect for me. Enjoy your search, I hope you find a boat that you love.
__________________
Kenr74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 14:03   #21
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Mid size sloop rigged
Posts: 182
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

So much great advice here.

The Chrysler wasn't on my RADAR, being kind of rare around these parts, but a Google search revealed one only a 10 minute drive away, apparently in decent shape and reasonably well equipped for $4000 CDN. I emailed the guy and unfortunately this one is a fixed keel model.

The only O'Day 25 I can find is $8500, nice looking boat, but blows my budget.

The only Catalina 22 is a whopping $16000!

A swing keel Tanzer 22 or 7.5 would be great if I can find one.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Ungvar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 14:14   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Mid size sloop rigged
Posts: 182
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

Hamburking, thanks for the offer of assistance. Two boats I am interested in are in the Kingston area, one on Wolfe Island and the other in Mallorytown, so I will keep your offer for assistance in mind.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Ungvar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 14:45   #23
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,461
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

FWIW:

First, I echo secrabtree's advice, and can attest to its veracity, for I was a competitor in my Cat-22 all those years ago in SF Bay! We did indeed not just sail in 20-25 kts routinely, we raced, and raced hard (if not very skillfully at times). This resulted, in our case, of loosing the mast a couple of times, due to spreader failure (the design of the spreaders and their bases was later changed... ours was hull #61). But remember, this was with 4 bodies sitting out on the rail and driving to windward in a 4+ foot sea... big shock loads on the spar and rig.

Do remember that there were more than 10,000 of these boats built, mostly with swing keels. I have not heard of any cases where the keel knocked the bottom of the boat out or other such drastic damage. I dunno if Sam has heard of such... he was involved in th class longer than I was.

At any rate, for the usage imagined by the OP, worries about swing keel disasters in a Cat 22 are low on the priority list.

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 15:16   #24
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: North of San Francisco
Boat: Pearson 30
Posts: 46
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

I have a 1976 Venture 25 ( MacGregor ) got it for $100. It has a cast iron swing keel. When I got this boat it looked like is rarely saw the water aside from a recent float in the bay for a few months.
I pulled the keel and replaced the pivot bolt not a difficult job at all. While it was out, wire brushed the keel and painted it with 5 coats or rustolum paint. Also rebuilt the winch and put on a new Stainless Steel cable, all the keel work for less than $100.

Keel lock is a 1/2 inch bolt that you pass through the lowered keel near the pivot bolt.

The standing rigging, running rigging, and sails are in good condition.
( Forgot to mention the original keel bolt looked good too, adding to my thought that the boat lived on a trailer for close to 40 years. )

I have spent more on a outboard than I have for the boat. Good deals are out there if you search around. It sails well in San Francisco bay and is a great boat for exploring shallows. I prefer it to the newer MacGregors.

If you have any interest in the Venture (MacGregor) 25 I can send you pictures of my keel setup. It is very simple and goof proof.
__________________
NorthCoastJoe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 15:17   #25
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Mid size sloop rigged
Posts: 182
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

Jim, when searching archives I had read in another thread that you had cruised a Cat 22 from San Francisco to Vancouver and back, which is a pretty solid cruise.

While the CS is not identical to the Cat, it has a higher sail area/displacement area and a bit of a stubby keel in addition to the centre board, from a distance and statistically they appear to be very similar boats.

My research tells me 500 CS 22's were made, all in Ontario, and many were raced.

I had kind of already read between the lines and figured out what you have stated, my usage will be light family cruising near shore. I might sail across Georgian Bay or Lake Ontario, but I check the weather prior to making a lake crossing.

They look to be pretty sweet little boats, not boxy high free board jobs with hatches you could fly a Cessna through.



Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Ungvar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 15:38   #26
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Mid size sloop rigged
Posts: 182
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

Northcoastjoe, I would love to see pics of your keel maintenance. Even though there aren't many Macs around these parts, I am sure many of the same lessons will apply.

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Ungvar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 15:56   #27
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Great Lakes
Boat: Mid size sloop rigged
Posts: 182
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

* whoops, I said the CS appears to have a higher SA/D than a Cat 22, it is, but the big difference is the sail area displacement ratio. %50. That's a stiff boat!

Sent from my XP7700 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
__________________
Ungvar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 16:19   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: fl- various marinas
Boat: morgan O/I 33' sloop
Posts: 1,100
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

I think you need to think a little harder about your priorities. There is a world of difference between a pocket cruiser like the Grampian 26 and many of the weekenders you are looking at. If you go the swing keel/centerboard route be aware that the centerboard trunk is a very vulnerable point. Leaks are almost impossible to stop and any repairs tend to be difficult. Sailing any of these boats in stiff winds is possible but requires real expertise. Only you can judge if you have the necessary knowledge. Good fortune and fair winds whatever you decide.
__________________
Dave22q is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 17:03   #29
Registered User
 
UNCIVILIZED's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Up the mast, looking for clean wind.
Boat: Currently Shopping, & Heavily in LUST!
Posts: 5,629
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

You've little to worry about regarding safety & swing keeled or keel/centerboard boats. Growing up on the Great Lakes, they were all we had;
- Venture 21
- Venture 25
- Chrysler 26
- Chrysler 22
Plus, IIRC, all of them (or most, anyway) had built in, positive floatation foam. Rendering them unsinkable in theory. Though with any boat of that era, it'd be time to replace the buoyancy foam with new stuff.

And for the most part, crew wise, it was my Dad, my Brother, & I. Plus sometimes Dad's other half. Or he & she would take out the boat/take off & go cruising with it for several weeks.

Our boats got sailed all over the Great Lakes, with never any concern for stability. And the Chryslers were fast. With the 22 being a flyer.
My Dad & I would routinely get her up to 7-9kts, reaching/running, with a Big hank on drifter. When it was blowing in the teens, to high 20's. In conditions that had the 30'-something footers, cowering in harbor, tied to their docks.

Yes, in truly heavy conditions, ultimately they're not like a keelboat. Meaning that their LPS isn't 120+ degrees. Albeit, neither are most keelboats under 25' in length.
But with the hatchboards (especially the lower one) in place, & prudent seamanship, you'll have zero trouble.

Regarding the CB trunks, & pivot pins. On an older boat, for the sake of prudence, you could rebuild, or beef up the section of the trunk which holds the pin. Which, done right, should be fairly easy (LMK if you're Truly stuck as to the "how" on this).
And it couldn't hurt to replace the board's pivot pin, as well as dropping the board fully out, in order to inspect it, & give it a bit of TLC.
Plus, obviously, it'd be wise to replace the board's cable. And to inspect all of the hardware which raises & lowers it. But it's simple gear.

Also, other than on multihulls, such as Searunners for example, where the boards are inherently buoyant. I've only seen CB hold down hardware on Serious boats, such as Skip Novak's Pelagic
Albeit, it'd be pretty easy to fab up a hold down line, if one were Truly worried about the board staying down. But you don't commonly see such systems on swing keeled boats, even 40'ers, where the board have significant mass (sic).

And like I said, we sailed ours, all over the Great Lakes, in all kinds of weather. With actually, the Chrysler 22', being the best boat that we probably ever had, especially in terms of sailing qualities.
Up to, & including, the Cal 29 that they bought, after I was away at college.

Although, yes, the Chrysler 22 did have an annoying knocking in her keel box, particularly in light air & lumpy seas. But such things are easy to "fix", if you're so inclined. Not that they're a hazard to the boat's structural integrity.

Just for some ideas regarding the available size ranges of CB boats, here's an a thread on such, which also covers Sharpies. Another viable option.
How big a boat for swing keels?
__________________

The Uncommon Thing, The Hard Thing, The Important Thing (in Life): Making Promises to Yourself, And Keeping Them.
UNCIVILIZED is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-04-2016, 17:41   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Antioch CA
Boat: Cal 39
Posts: 189
Re: Help me to understand Swingkeels

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ungvar View Post
So much great advice here.

The only Catalina 22 is a whopping $16000!
Whew! That's a lot for a used Catalina 22. As I remember, I paid leass than half that for my C22 with trailer. But that was in 1973.
__________________

__________________
secrabtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
keel

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion. Help me understand more in depth...clr! looks can be deceiving boatsail Monohull Sailboats 33 20-08-2013 14:23
Help Me Understand My Whisker Pole - Please four winds Seamanship & Boat Handling 31 06-08-2012 10:35
Help me understand where I can anchor in SF Bay (map included) Telefonica Rules of the Road, Regulations & Red Tape 29 06-03-2012 10:12
Help Me Understand Average Wind Speed Readings rhr1956 Seamanship & Boat Handling 6 15-09-2011 15:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.