Why are more men into sailing than women?

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by KiwiKen

I am delighted to see women promoted into senior positions such as CEO, with one proviso, that they achieved the promotion on ability and merit, and not because of some box ticking affirmative action.

Never have I worked in a more toxic environment that at HP around 2000/2001 during Queen Carly Fiorina's reign.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Emoyeni

Wow everyone, OP here. I didn't think this thread would get this heated, but I guess I should have known better. I kept the prompt open ended to encourage discussion. For the record, my reason for asking is that I'm trying to get a lot of women in my life like my wife, two daughters, and two sisters more into sailing. I think sailing is a great way to gain problem solving skills, spend time in nature, and gain confidence/independence. I would absolutely hope that my daughters grow up to have these skills and if they enjoy sailing, even better to have someone to sail with for years to come.

The closest I've ever got to having children is my collection of nieces and nephews. So take my advice for what it's worth .

I think most people learn by doing, and secondarily by seeing it done. So get out and do it with them.

I don't mean just jump in. I mean ease them in. Go at their pace. But show them they can do it by doing it with them.

If they enjoy themselves they'll quickly leave you in the dust. If they decide it's not for them, then I know you'll support them in whatever they choose.

[AKA-None]

Like anything they and their friends will want to do it then that’s a plus

[danstanford]

I strongly second the notion of getting someone else to teach sailing skills to your spouse. A strong parallel is golf where despite my ability to teach others, teaching a spouse has special challenges which are very hard to overcome. The exception seems to be little pearls of wisdom only when someone asks for them.
One observation I would offer is anecdotal but with tons of recurrence to validate it in some ways. I employ 7 women and about 3 times that many men and have a long history of trying to unsuccessfully motivate/manage both cohorts using the same techniques and tools. Not that there is uniformity in either group, but generally speaking the eyes of the women glaze over as you dive into the technical elements, especially when they are math based. I would never suggest they are not capable, these women just have different priorities and are much more interested in the results rather than the process.
Sailing is similar in some ways to the design work we do in that it leads to something beautiful but many of us men insist on knowing why and even worse, imposing some kind of rules around how we get there.
Please don't lump me into the camp of people trying to misogynistically lump women into a rule that precludes them from flourishing anywhere they choose but rather someone who cares about how to help them succeed and has noticed useful things in that pursuit.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by danstanford

I strongly second the notion of getting someone else to teach sailing skills to your spouse.

Yes. Me too. I'm not a horrible teacher, I was even certified at one point as a CYA Learn-to-Windsurf instructor, where we got many absolute beginners going. But teaching your life partner is like cementing-in the teacher/student relationship.

So my wife took CYA Basic Keelboat on her own, enjoyed it immensely, gained much confidence, and this helped make sailing "our" thing, and not just mine.

[Mike OReilly]

When my spouse and I were first learning to sail we took the initial CYA Basic Keelboat course together. It was a great experience. Following that though we purposely took subsequent courses on our own. She did CYA Intermediate and then Advanced at a school based in the Caribbean, and I went west to do my Advanced (I successfully challenged the Intermediate).

We work very well as a team, but it was good for both of us to prove our skills independent of each other.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by KiwiKen

I strongly object to any form of affirmative action, the only selection criteria should be ability, merit and formal qualifications if they are specified - no one should get priority for race, gender, religion or and other attribute not related to the task to be performed.


If a lesser qualified individual is selected on the grounds of any affirmative action quotas or criteria, then it is contrary to natural justice and the rights of the better qualified applicants.

100%, this should be obvious but isnt.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

100%, this should be obvious but isnt.

In a perfect world. But this merit-based approaches ignore the bias ingrained in the systems which act as barriers to even seeing the merit of groups of people, let alone allowing them to achieve formal qualifications. This is the whole point of some of these initiatives.

It's a messy approach, and one that can tip into so-called reverse-discrimination. But one cannot ignore the reality that systemic discrimination works to ensure that not everyone has the same opportunity to show merit, receive the necessary training and education, and achieve the credentials.

Toppling the myth of meritocracy

[JPA Cate]

If a discussion of affirmative action were to start in depth here, the thread will be closed. CF is not the proper venue for it. It is political in nature, and not related to sailing or cruising.

[boatman61]

I thought that sending the gf on a sailing course before we set off for the Med would be a good idea.. we had been sailing together for about 7mths before that..
Trouble was.. after the course she started questioning my commands instead of just doing.. this lasted till we got to Mallorca... we had sailed to Alcudia to get our gas canisters refilled and I figured we'd do a circle round the island back down to Andratx calling in at Pollen a and Soler.. anyway, we got to Soler and spent a couple off nights then headed down toward Dragonera, winds were really light so I had the gennekar out and we were making maybe 3kts all the way..
As we approached the Strait I spotted wind ripples ahead, Liz was holding the sheet with just one turn round the winch and I told her to take two more turns and cleat it..
Why.???... 30 seconds later she found out as she flew across the cockpit and slammed into the other side... never questioned till after from then on...

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by daletournier

It doesn't tip into reverse racism or sexism, it is reverse racism and sexism....what's that two wrongs dont make a right thing?

Try thinking about it like PRHF handicapping. The point is to balance the initial imbalances to allow the true talent to come through.

[boatman61]

I don't think it's anything to do with racism or sexism... that's just falling into the old Need of 'Everything needs to be put in a Box'
I have sailed with as many men as I have women who shared the same traits, a lack of ability to concentrate on the task at hand, an inability to retain simple information and a conviction they know how something can be done better sometimes with dodgey consequences..
Like the owner deciding to drop the keel without informing me at the helm while running at 6kts on a broad reach resulting in the boat pivoting near 180* just because he thought he knew better about how the boat could perform despite only owning it less than 2 weeks..
Lack of concentration at the bow line handling because something happening on the other side of the dock is more interesting..
Flying 12ft into the air handballing a spinnaker because the person feeding the line stopped feeding to talk to someone in the cabin.. despite being told the importance of being steady.
Some people are either not that interested or just not capable, it's a day out on the water to a bay for a lazy afternoon and then back to Port.. that's it, you don't need to know how to drive a train for a day trip to Bognor..
Women and men I have known who've actually wanted to learn from scratch I can count on one hand.. Combined.
Oh.!!! and none of my friends have ever expressed any interest in buying or getting independently involved in boats themselves other than day tripping with me and they all consider me insane.. the romantically involved have only sailed on sufferance.

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

the romantically involved have only sailed on sufferance.

I had better luck here, most of them were very up to sailing romantically for a few weeks in beautiful warm waters with lots of sun and little clothing.
However, I doubt I would even try to bring the topic up, if the sailing were to be done in the UK or in winter.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

I had better luck here, most of them were very up to sailing romantically for a few weeks in beautiful warm waters with lots of sun and little clothing.
However, I doubt I would even try to bring the topic up, if the sailing were to be done in the UK or in winter.

Oh for sure they wanted to sail the Med and Caribe but that did not mean they wanted to learn to be able to handle a boat themselves.. hell they won't even cook because it makes them feel ill at sea..
Including the not romantically involved guys beyond opening a can and heating.. Yuck.. they're to used to Mom or the missus doing the cooking..

[Joh.Ghurt]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Oh for sure they wanted to sail the Med and Caribe but that did not mean they wanted to learn to be able to handle a boat themselves.. hell they won't even cook because it makes them feel ill at sea..

Now I'm going (probably rightfully) to be accused of being a misogynist and chauvinist, but either they find their place on the boat or they'll find one off the boat.

I don't care much how they contribute, but I'm really short on patience with leeches that don't. As I don't want to be dependent too much on others, I can manage the boat alone. It doesn't mean I'm not grateful for help.

As to looking decorative, this only goes so far as contribution.