Why are more men into sailing than women?

[KelseyB]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

Is whistling at a woman a compliment? Sometimes, I think it might be intended or thought of that way, but it is a compliment with a sting embedded in it. If she responds to it as a compliment, her response is likely to be taken as a come on. It sexualizes her when perhaps all she'd like is to get on with whatever she was doing at the moment. It is a reflection on the whistler, too, as he has just told us he objectifies us to the extent he's imagining what is where those tanned thighs join.

Ann

Exactly. What is and what is not a compliment is up to the recipient. Often in the sailing world, I'll see men say things to women that are well-meaning; maybe they genuinely do think that was a good docking. I have no doubt that many cat callers believe they are complimenting the woman on her looks. But for the cat caller, it is a complete dismissal of everything that she is that is NOT her looks, and he is instead reducing her to her body and making her feel threatened. For the well-meaning "good docking" commenter with the air of surprise in his voice, he perhaps could not help let the surprise seep into his tone, but it was still there, and it negated any complimentary feeling he may have meant to convey.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by Chotu

I hope people didn’t misunderstand my response. I said hormones in the very beginning. But I did not say that women’s hormones make them somehow inferior. I am saying that we both have different sets of hormones. And they generally make for some differences between the sexes.

We are NOT the same. We do not have the same physical or mental makeup. We are different. And that’s great!

However, if you go look at the general population of women, you are not going to find as many of them genuinely interested in any of these things we are talking about. Boats, motorcycles, airplanes, computers, intricate things that take a lot of fussing around. Generally, this does not seem to be enjoyable to the majority of women. Somehow, men do enjoy things that take a lot of intricate fussing around. This is not anything negative. This is just a simple characteristic of our sex hormones

And of course, as I said in my earlier post, plenty of people do buck the general trend. Littlewing here is an expert. Someone we take advice from. Not only interested in sailing, but a master of it. But we can only really talk in generalities here.

There are other activities that women are mostly drawn to. Where are you find almost no men. It would be the same exact situation there. Hormones have something to do with the fact that most men do not work in daycare centers. We just don’t like it. It doesn’t go with our brains and hormones. Of course a couple do, but not many.

There are other activities that women are mostly drawn to. Where are you find almost no men. It would be the same exact situation there. Hormones have something to do with the fact that most men do not work in daycare centers. We just don’t like it. It doesn’t go with our brains and hormones. Of course a couple do, but not many. I would like to stress that nothing I’m saying has anything to do with putting anyone down. These are simply observations from a lifetime of dealing with both genders. And I have to say, I know a lot more women that I know men. LOL. So, I know a little bit more about women than guys. The only way I know about guys because I am one. The only way I know about guys because I am one. Otherwise, I don’t really hang around with them.

So, Littlewing, I hope you didn’t take offense at my post. I feel bad because I look above and see that you are referring to hormones. I am the one that brought that up. But I hope the context and meeting that I’m using it as well understood. I am trying to stress that there are differences between the sexes. And we do have different tastes.

It's sad that you need to almost be apologetic for having an opinion because others dont feel good about your opinion, nothing you said was offensive yet some need it to be in order to make their own narrative stay intact.

I like Ann , obviously a lovely lady yet some of her views are outright sexist, but a free pass gets given? why , because it suits the narrative of the day.

Women and many are different, which can and does lead to different interests, not right or wrong, just different, I'm not sure why this is an issue.

[KelseyB]

Another note that I withheld in my original response but am now motivated to share:

When I was restoring my boat, I was working on the hard for the better part of the summer in a marina where I was the ONLY woman there on a day to day basis. The good news is that I got the women's bathroom all to myself. The bad news is that, more than one time, I literally had to pull a knife to get a man to leave me alone. There was a semi-constant stream of male boat-owners in that marina who saw me working there, alone, as a then 20-year-old college student, and felt that that was an invitation to come up and ask me about my project. Of course, the overwhelming majority of them were very kind men who were genuinely curious, who wanted to hear my thoughts on it and who often offered me very valuable advice and whom I very much enjoyed talking with. Such is one of the things I love about the sailing community. But there was also the handful of them who far overstayed their welcome, who said things like "hey when are you gonna take ME sailing?" in that tone that EVERY woman knows, who literally followed me around the marina in their car for 20 minutes until I turned around with 911 ready to dial on my phone in one hand and a 5 inch blade in the other while I got in their face and screamed "if you don't get the f*** out of this marina in the next 30 seconds I won't hesitate". And who then RETURNED the next day to harass me again. Does this type of bs happen everywhere, and not just in sailing? Of course. But because I was the ONLY woman there, because I stood out so much and had nowhere safe to go because of the fact that there weren't any other women there, THAT is the problem. So the next time you try to blame it on hormones, ask yourself if you have ever feared for your life because of your gender, if you have ever had to physically threaten someone to get them to leave you alone, simply because you were working on your boat. Think about what it would feel like to be the only member of your gender in a mile radius, or the only member of your race, or whatever. Think about how much more difficult that would make it to just go and get your work done, to mind your own business, to not have to remember to carry a knife with you when you go to the marina bathroom because you've needed it before.

[DMF Sailing]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Ah but if you are having to use all of your physical force to sail, might you be doing something wrong, perhaps? .

THIS ^. Case in point, sailor friend of mine who happens to be a woman showed me how to quickly raise a mainsail on a 40-footer from the mast using core muscles.

I outweigh her, and can bench and squat a lot more, but have we not learnt that brute strength < knowledge and skill every time?

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by daletournier

It's sad that you need to almost be apologetic for having an opinion because others dont feel good about your opinion, nothing you said was offensive yet some need it to be in order to make their own narrative stay intact.

I like Ann , obviously a lovely lady yet some of her views are outright sexist, but a free pass gets given? why , because it suits the narrative of the day.

Women and many are different, which can and does lead to different interests, not right or wrong, just different, I'm not sure why this is an issue.

I appreciate the support, but I also agree with Little wing in some key areas. And I have to give Ann credit for having the patience of a saint in this room full of guys. LOL

I wanted to be sure my speaking of the word “hormones” was not taken in a negative way, because that’s not at all what I meant. I just meant men and women do have differences, despite Gen Z’s best attempts to neuter and spay us into a beige, unisex, kinda pudgy, out of shape, complaining blobs. Ha ha ha.

And hormones are the crucial difference between men and women. They give us all the differences between the sexes. For better or for worse. They should be celebrated and the differences that arise should be accepted and received.

Privately, I was talking with little wing and she reminded me of something I wasn’t considering. And she’s right. There is a bias or prejudice against women on boats in terms of their skill in sailing. I don’t know if it’s due to men being jerks or if it’s because most women aren’t interested in sailing so we assume none are interested enough to be good at it. But the bias is real.

The same bias occurred in my high level science and technology classes. Women in all of these cases have to work twice as hard just to be accepted for their equal or greater skill. And that’s not fair. I don’t know WHY this is, but it sucks and I can empathize with them about it.

On topic, line up 200 women and 200 men and find what all are interested in. The interests will fall in line with our sex hormones. Yes, there will be ones with are different. Exceptions, but the averages and majorities will fall into the genger conformity arising from the hormones themselves.

Just reverse everything to double check. Forget women for a second. Focus on men.

We could ask the same questions :

Why don’t men like shopping days?

Why don’t men like careers in daycare?

Why don’t more men knit or sew with enthusiasm?

Why don’t men like to feel pretty and confident and have women coming up to them to ask them out?

Why don’t men like any number of things men (on average ) don’t like doing?

It’s because of our hormones. They bend our mind on a certain way. It’s exactly the same for women. And this is something special about humanity. Our differences. They should be celebrated and viewed as strengths.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Exactly. What is and what is not a compliment is up to the recipient. Often in the sailing world, I'll see men say things to women that are well-meaning; maybe they genuinely do think that was a good docking. I have no doubt that many cat callers believe they are complimenting the woman on her looks. But for the cat caller, it is a complete dismissal of everything that she is that is NOT her looks, and he is instead reducing her to her body and making her feel threatened. For the well-meaning "good docking" commenter with the air of surprise in his voice, he perhaps could not help let the surprise seep into his tone, but it was still there, and it negated any complimentary feeling he may have meant to convey.

Ewwwww. Cat calling. Men need to STOP this immediately. It’s stupid and from a purely male point of view, it’s not getting you one single girl. So why are you doing it?? I definitely don’t like pervs.

[Tillikum]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Same as for other technical, lesser comfort, not as homey endeavors.

They just aren’t.

I find it crazy that gen z wants to force a gender neutral life on everyone. It’s hard to force men into being daycare workers and hard to force women into being into sailing or any number of other things.

Hormones are real. Hormones do influence our thought processes and feelings. There ARE differences between men and women.

Women like boats if you make sure the boat tickles their important feelings just as it does yours. Ie: you’re not going round the world in a 27’ boat with her unless you’re both 18 and she’s a very adventurous person.

Of course there are exceptions to every generalization, but estrogen is basically why women aren’t as into boats or other toys like these.

https://chicago.suntimes.com/2017/11...-sized-sandbox

I could have taken the same picture here recently: a row of women with little boys in strollers, the latter all watching with fascination the machines at a construction site.

No, gender is a not "social construct".

Gender politics plainly is.

Previous generations probably didn't have the leisure time for such things; they were too busy living.

Some men and some women can do darn near everything the opposite sex can, except their biological functions. So what?

Do we need to be the same, should we be the same?

*Yawn*

What would Grace Darling say?

[Wotname]

You sailing folk should check out the Pony Club forums; mainly inhabited by females and none of them is asking why there isn't more men in equestrian clubs (although many males are in competitive riding).

Hint - they don't care and I suspect they are happy there aren't more men in 'their' clubs.

[Chotu]

This is soooooo COMPLETELY unacceptable I’m at a loss for words. There are some truly disgusting guys out there. WTF. Crazy too. All in all, in life, men are worse than women in the grand scheme of things. This type of behavior needs to end IMMEDIATELY. These guys piss me off.

People slowing your work down by coming to waste your time really sucks. As a guy, I have that problem too, but some perv just milling around letting the inappropriate comments fly? It’s disgusting.

One thing I have to say in their sort of defense, at least in an attempt to understand their deranged minds is this. My theory is these guys are the ones that grew up with a dad and 2 brothers or something. Like they don’t view women as people just like them but as a different species. They have no clue how to talk to women (people) and just screw up constantly thinking they can somehow be forceful with women in a romantic sense. That’s a HUGE mistake.

I wish I could help these nut jobs sometimes just to take some of them out of that scary vibe they create for women. I feel like most are not trying to be scary and gross, but genuinely don’t know how to speak to women for the above reasons.

Someone needs to teach them right from wrong.

Originally Posted by KelseyB

Another note that I withheld in my original response but am now motivated to share:

When I was restoring my boat, I was working on the hard for the better part of the summer in a marina where I was the ONLY woman there on a day to day basis. The good news is that I got the women's bathroom all to myself. The bad news is that, more than one time, I literally had to pull a knife to get a man to leave me alone. There was a semi-constant stream of male boat-owners in that marina who saw me working there, alone, as a then 20-year-old college student, and felt that that was an invitation to come up and ask me about my project. Of course, the overwhelming majority of them were very kind men who were genuinely curious, who wanted to hear my thoughts on it and who often offered me very valuable advice and whom I very much enjoyed talking with. Such is one of the things I love about the sailing community. But there was also the handful of them who far overstayed their welcome, who said things like "hey when are you gonna take ME sailing?" in that tone that EVERY woman knows, who literally followed me around the marina in their car for 20 minutes until I turned around with 911 ready to dial on my phone in one hand and a 5 inch blade in the other while I got in their face and screamed "if you don't get the f*** out of this marina in the next 30 seconds I won't hesitate". And who then RETURNED the next day to harass me again. Does this type of bs happen everywhere, and not just in sailing? Of course. But because I was the ONLY woman there, because I stood out so much and had nowhere safe to go because of the fact that there weren't any other women there, THAT is the problem. So the next time you try to blame it on hormones, ask yourself if you have ever feared for your life because of your gender, if you have ever had to physically threaten someone to get them to leave you alone, simply because you were working on your boat. Think about what it would feel like to be the only member of your gender in a mile radius, or the only member of your race, or whatever. Think about how much more difficult that would make it to just go and get your work done, to mind your own business, to not have to remember to carry a knife with you when you go to the marina bathroom because you've needed it before.

[KelseyB]

Agreed. The reason I share this is because, as I said, this was an experience unique to the fact that 1) I'm a woman and 2) I was the only one there. So that's where I think a lot of the disconnect can come from between genders- is that I am FAR from the only woman who has had this experience, but women don't share these experiences lightly, especially with men. So if you're a man, and you've never experienced this personally, and you've never heard it in this kind of detail because it isn't the kind of thing that just gets thrown around in casual conversation, then how would you know??? This is why I share. Because all of this milling around about hormones and crap misses the point by a mile. I share because I can when others can't or aren't comfortable doing so, so that hopefully it can be seen and at least be begun to be understood by those who have never seen or experienced it. This is why I say it's no mystery to women why more women aren't involved in sailing, because they see this crap all the time, it's just so very often hidden from view.

Originally Posted by Chotu

This is soooooo COMPLETELY unacceptable I’m at a loss for words. There are some truly disgusting guys out there. WTF. Crazy too. All in all, in life, men are worse than women in the grand scheme of things. This type of behavior needs to end IMMEDIATELY. These guys piss me off.

People slowing your work down by coming to waste your time really sucks. As a guy, I have that problem too, but some perv just milling around letting the inappropriate comments fly? It’s disgusting.

One thing I have to say in their sort of defense, at least in an attempt to understand their deranged minds is this. My theory is these guys are the ones that grew up with a dad and 2 brothers or something. Like they don’t view women as people just like them but as a different species. They have no clue how to talk to women (people) and just screw up constantly thinking they can somehow be forceful with women in a romantic sense. That’s a HUGE mistake.

I wish I could help these nut jobs sometimes just to take some of them out of that scary vibe they create for women. I feel like most are not trying to be scary and gross, but genuinely don’t know how to speak to women for the above reasons.

Someone needs to teach them right from wrong.

[Nauticus]

Up here in Ottawa Canada you can't swing a dead cat by the tail and not hit 4 women sailors. And truth be told, they're better than most men from what I see.

My .02 fwiw

Fair winds [emoji569]

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by KelseyB

I read the first two pages of this thread and not the last two so forgive me if I missed a development here in this response.

*snipped for brevity*

Hogwash. Utterly and simply hogwash.

I teach firearms. I have both men and women in my classes. I have students who are total newbies and others who think they're Doc Holiday but aren't even close to Roy Rogers. Believe me, I've seen plenty of men who don't know how to do the simplest things and women who are better than I am at what I teach. And vice versa.

There's no "Man Gene" which makes men "more than a woman." There's no "Girl Gene" which makes a woman "less able" than a man. What there are are physical differences and mental differences which affect each individual's outlook and abilities. Good instructors and "play mates" know this and treat everyone equally to the best of their abilities and desires.

It comes down to the simple fact that the reason there are fewer women in the sailing sport is because they don't want to. Why is because they're individuals and make their own choices. Those choices aren't dictated by the fact that women wear skirts. It's because women are women and evolution has made them what they are and their choices develop from there.

Instead of celebrating that, you're trying to tell us that you believe you're treated differently merely because you're a woman. Which tells me that you're projecting your own beliefs on others. For instance, the sales people at the local marine supply store aren't "helping you" because you're a woman, they're helping you because that's their job. Part of their job is to recommend things to you in case you didn't know you needed those extra parts/pieces. Or letting you know that if you buy this one, you'll have a better outcome than if you buy that one.

It's what they get paid to do. And if they don't do it, they get crappy reviews from people who don't know what they're doing and go there needing extra help but don't get it. The bad part is that they also get crappy reviews from people with gender inspired chips on their shoulders.

All it takes it a "no thanks, I've got this" and they'll leave you alone. They'll watch just to be sure you truly do "got that" but I do the same even for those women students of mine who can outshoot me. Why? Because we don't know what we don't know and having an "expert" handy can help keep us all out of trouble.

And if you think guys don't get the sales pitch/helpful store clerk routine just like you do, you're crazy. I shoot. I shoot A LOT! and I still get the "range safety lecture" even at ranges where they know me by my first name and can recognize me even with a face mask on and my back turned.

You know why? Because everyone gets treated the same way. And if you don't like being talked to like the most newbie of the newbies, it's not the guy doing the talking who is the problem. It's you.

[Rob_P]

Originally Posted by Nauticus

Up here in Ottawa Canada you can't swing a dead cat by the tail and not hit 4 women sailors. And truth be told, they're better than most men from what I see.

My .02 fwiw

Fair winds [emoji569]

This is because you're not yelling "TACKING!" loud enough before you swing the cat.

[Tillikum]

There was a time when a man who even spoke improperly to a girl or woman was likely to get a good thrashing if not something worse, and the justice if so it was, was usually delayed only by minutes and administered "by the (male) community".

But nowadays no one wants to get involved, as Kitty Genovese found out long ago.

Of course there was also some expectation back then that women as well as men would abide by certain standards of behaviour.

[Fore and Aft]

KelseyB it sounds like you struck a bad marina. Certainly there are better marina's around where you would barely get a second glance.
I have had two female clients this year. One just last week and her and I were standing in the cockpit of the yacht she was looking at buying. The guy in the yacht next to us asked if the lady was going to skipper the yacht and if she was he would put some extra fenders along his topsides! I put that misogynistic SOB in his place. I cannot believe in 2021 we are still getting attitude like that. No wonder woman are not keen on sailing.