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Old 24-05-2014, 10:48   #361
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Bolt issues or no bolt issues, whatever hit them was a huge catastrophic event. The fact that some of them couldn't regroup and try to free a raft is indicative. These were experienced cool headed chaps. Makes this all the more tragic.


V sad and true. In those seas and winds getting back to the inverted hull after becoming detached would have been an uphill battle just by itself.
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Old 24-05-2014, 12:56   #362
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Bolt issues or no bolt issues, whatever hit them was a huge catastrophic event. The fact that some of them couldn't regroup and try to free a raft is indicative. These were experienced cool headed chaps. Makes this all the more tragic.
My feelings exactly Salty.

To he who asked about the construction of that First, you'd likely need to know the year of construction to determine which method of construction she was.

My condolences to all those close to these four men.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:21   #363
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
One question, please, as I'm quite ignorant regarding First series construction methods and engineering.

Are their hulls now built using (famous or infamous) Beneteau's inner liner technique, or are they of more traditional/conventional construction?

Best regards

Tomasz
The 40.7 and the newer 40CR both have monolithic (I think) hulls with partial liners bonded in. The keel is through-bolted to the liner. The 40.7 has a lead bulbous fin keel, which came in deep and shoal draft versions. There may have been a money saving cast iron option as well, I'm not sure. The newer 40CR has a somewhat racier option of a true bulb keel, a lead torpedo on a cast iron pylon, as well as cheaper cast iron options.

For the exact construction in the keel area we need Minaret, but these are the basics from my experience having sailed them.

My impression of them is that they are relatively solid boats, they have higher displacement and ballast ratios than the Oceanis series and they feel like it. They need to be, they're expected to get through offshore races like the Fastnet and Sydney Hobart. Certainly, they are powerful boats which sail well, and they happen to be some of the few production boats that I really like, as the relatively lightweight construction of modern production boats is pretty well suited to these cruiser-racers, more so than true cruising boats.

I'm not one for groundless speculation, but a caution I would give to anyone (like me) given to Bendy-bashing is that, with some thousands of the type out there which haven't lost their keels, this is very likely to be the result of as yet undetermined prior damage.

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Old 24-05-2014, 13:35   #364
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
The 40.7 and the newer 40CR both have monolithic (I think) hulls with partial liners bonded in. The keel is through-bolted to the liner. The 40.7 has a lead bulbous fin keel, which came in deep and shoal draft versions. There may have been a money saving cast iron option as well, I'm not sure. The newer 40CR has a somewhat racier option of a true bulb keel, a lead torpedo on a cast iron pylon, as well as cheaper cast iron options.





For the exact construction in the keel area we need Minaret, but these are the basics from my experience having sailed them.





My impression of them is that they are relatively solid boats, they have higher displacement and ballast ratios than the Oceanis series and they feel like it. They need to be, they're expected to get through offshore races like the Fastnet and Sydney Hobart. Certainly, they are powerful boats which sail well, and they happen to be some of the few production boats that I really like, as the relatively lightweight construction of modern production boats is pretty well suited to these cruiser-racers, more so than true cruising boats.





I'm not one for groundless speculation, but a caution I would give to anyone (like me) given to Bendy-bashing is that, with some thousands of the type out there which haven't lost their keels, this is very likely to be the result of as yet undetermined prior damage.









There are three real differences between the oceanis (older model) and the first:

1) First has a.more powerful rig.

2) The first has a longer slimmer keel than the oceanis. The Oceanis is typically bolted in two rows, whereas the First is mostly single row due to the slimmer profile of the keel.

3) The deck gear on the first is higher quality and more numerous for quicker/optimized sail trimming with a bigger crew.



Both keels are through-bolted a plate which is integral to the frame, this transfers loads up to the inner-chainplate snubbers through the frame directly.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:40   #365
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

I forgot to mention that the Oceanis model I'm referencing is the older type. I haven't got a clue how the new type (the ones with the funny arch for the mainsheet traveller) are constructed.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:50   #366
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by europaflyer View Post
The 40.7 and the newer 40CR both have monolithic (I think) hulls with partial liners bonded in.
For the exact construction in the keel area we need Minaret, but these are the basics from my experience having sailed them.
I'm not into Bendy-bashing here (even i I admit to dislike the brand except of Firsts), just curious, as I do not think liner construction is the best choice for racer or cruiser - racer, given the huge forces involved.

On the other hand - if outer hull is monolithic, the teared off part on the photos would be the total of hull proper, with only the liner left in place.
I thought it was sandwich, with outer skin teared off, but now I'm assuming You are probably right, as to tear of outer skin of sandwich hull is probably difficult, if the hull was not delaminated earlier.

May be we will hear more from Minaret - i think it is worth to know.

Regards,

Tomasz
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:52   #367
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Couldn't the forces from a knockdown, or other hydraulic forces cause this, if the bolts were compromised? I guess a whale or floating debris too, but what about just the forces of water on the keel, if one or more bolts are fractured? Once it started to go, I would think water would finish it off.

Heard on NPR today riding around the farm, figured there would be a thread. It is eye opening that they could not get anything together to ditch. I'm going to get in the habit of keeping a PLB attached to me along with the strobe. DSC would have been useless with the stick upside down.

An auto EPIRB in a cradle could have been helpful here. No doubt this is risky business, and I'm sorry for the loss of this crew.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:53   #368
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
There are three real differences between the oceanis (older model) and the first:

1) First has a.more powerful rig.

2) The first has a longer slimmer keel than the oceanis. The Oceanis is typically bolted in two rows, whereas the First is mostly single row due to the slimmer profile of the keel.

3) The deck gear on the first is higher quality and more numerous for quicker/optimized sail trimming with a bigger crew.

Both keels are through-bolted a plate which is integral to the frame, this transfers loads up to the inner-chainplate snubbers through the frame directly.
Should have left the explanation to you then really, but as no-one had offered any so far I felt I could step in.
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Old 24-05-2014, 13:58   #369
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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An auto EPIRB in a cradle could have been helpful here. No doubt this is risky business, and I'm sorry for the loss of this crew.

I noted that RebelHeart also had her EPIRB located downstairs on the bulkhead as Eric mentioned that he carried it topsides to strap it to a railing for a "clear view of the sky".

I know those water-release EPIRB containers which you mount on your mast base or stern rails cost a bit, but there's a much better chance of them actually getting deployed during a catastrophic event (bobbling to the surface) than if they're sat downstairs our of the way!
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:22   #370
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Dave and Boatie...ya I do agree that taking a modern racer cruiser into oceans known to get a bit stinky is the skippers responsibility and not the builder. Having said that I don't think the builder should be advertising their boats as offshore designed and built when at best they might better be described as "offshore light".
I'm not sure about all there paper advertisement but I went to the St Pete Boat Show in the boat show">Miami Boat Show and spoke in depth with Beneteau lagoon Leopard Jeanneau manufacturers and I ask them exactly what they're boat was capable of and what models they felt was safer to go offshore in. and I seem to get the same answer you could take this boat anywhere if you equip correctly and you have the skill to do so. I don't know if it's as much them advertising it as much as somebody hoping that they can do it

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Old 24-05-2014, 14:24   #371
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
I noted that RebelHeart also had her EPIRB located downstairs on the bulkhead as Eric mentioned that he carried it topsides to strap it to a railing for a "clear view of the sky".

I know those water-release EPIRB containers which you mount on your mast base or stern rails cost a bit, but there's a much better chance of them actually getting deployed during a catastrophic event (bobbling to the surface) than if they're sat downstairs our of the way!
I think the problem with mounting these almost anywhere on the deck of a sailboat is that water coming onboard can release them accidentally. I keep mine just below the companionway in the hopes it will float up & out if I can't get to it in time.
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:24   #372
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Originally Posted by Cavalier View Post
There are three real differences between the oceanis (older model) and the first:

1) First has a.more powerful rig.

2) The first has a longer slimmer keel than the oceanis. The Oceanis is typically bolted in two rows, whereas the First is mostly single row due to the slimmer profile of the keel.

3) The deck gear on the first is higher quality and more numerous for quicker/optimized sail trimming with a bigger crew.



Both keels are through-bolted a plate which is integral to the frame, this transfers loads up to the inner-chainplate snubbers through the frame directly.
In the older models there were also more stringers in the First than in the Oceanis.
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:26   #373
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

Good argument for stern accessible life raft mounts too. I guess a molded transom pocket would be more secure than rail mounting.

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Old 24-05-2014, 14:32   #374
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Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

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Good argument for stern accessible life raft mounts too. I guess a molded transom pocket would be more secure than rail mounting.

.


After much soul searching, deliberation and pointed "what if" questions from the Admiral, our canister got moved from just aft of the mast to the stern rail. The real clanger was watching my wife trying to pick it up (assuming I was unconscious) let alone deploy it over the side!
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Old 24-05-2014, 14:35   #375
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pirate Re: UK yacht Cheeki Rafiki missing in mid-Atlantic

If memory serves me well.. Offshore extends to 200 miles.. after that its Ocean.. or as some like to call it..'Blue Water'..
At least as far as insurance company's go..
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