Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[KnuckleDragger]

Polux.
For the record, Sequitur, although an impressive voyage, didn't circumnavigate.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

I have seen a few Hunters out and about on open seas, but not a lot. Good friends in Mexico had their rudder fall out of their new Hunter entering Paradise Village marina in Puerto Vallarta a few years ago. I don't remember what specific model it was but it was not a 466. I am not a boat bigot for sure but some boats are a better bet for offshore cruising than others. The price of the boat is not the biggest factor regarding seaworthiness.

Given the number of cases I would say that at least some Hunter models have rudder problems but that is just a thing you have to check out if you buy a Hunter. The above circumnavigator on a Hunter 34 said about that:

"I think the design of the rudder is quite strong enough but the construction was poor hence my choice to strengthen....The rudder is the original but reinforced with a sheathing of 2 layers of 2 oz GRP"

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Polux

Besides the Hunter 49 Sequitur, that circumnavigated by the horn without problems

Sequitor did not 'circumnavigate by the horn'... by the time they reached the Falklands they had abandoned their circumnavigation ideas.
'The Horn'? They 'daysailed' that from Puerto Williams as most do. OK so daysailing the Horn can take from 3 days to 3 weeks but it is still daysailing.
'Without problems'?.... Check the amount of work they had done in Pto Montt....

Stick to the facts, Polux, just the facts ..

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

I don't understand what Politics have to do with this and I will not continue with that but let me just correct you in what regards your medieval image of Portugal, Spain and Italy: all had constitutional Monarchies, has the ones that still remain in Europe, centuries before dictatorship. Portugal was even a Republic from several decades before Salazar. You should also know that when a dictatorship is overthrow by popular revolutionary movements what follows is big civil liberties...some times too much of that

Saying that Italy has only partially very limited sailing yacht traditions is very funny giving the number of sailing clubs, shipyards and Yachts around. Regarding Portugal our last king was an enthusiastic yachtsman and Oceanographer and the Spanish kings have a long tradition in Yachting owning and racing them.

Regarding what are very poor countries you have also a funny notion about that. For me very poor countries are countries like Liberia, Congo, Niger and many other African countries that have a GDP per capita about 25 times smaller than Portugal and very rich countries the ones that have 50 to 100% more than the US, like Qatar, Singapore, Kuwait, Luxembourg or Monaco. Regarding that list (GDP/capita - World Bank) considering 185 countries, Portugal is on 38th, Italy on 27th, Ireland in 12th, Spain in 31th and Greece is 40th. USA is on 10th place, not far from Ireland.

That denomination of "PIGS" was meant to be offensive when created but I am sure it was not your intention in using it and your economic vision of the situation regarding those countries, particularly Portugal and Ireland, is very far from actualized.

Both countries had a rough time and needed the intervention of a troika (EC, FMI, ECB) to put finances in order (to lend money at interests below the market). The intervention on both countries has finished, neither of them needs exterior help and are economically growing above the EC average, diminishing rapidly the unemployment tax, increasing exportation and the money interests for covering the deficit is the lowest in a decade.

Both countries have strict plans to diminish and finish with the deficit (plans that are working), went over big structural reforms with cuts in state expending in about everything. Contrary to what you say they are going up and not down.

Regarding Greece I don't have great hopes since they are going to vote on a extreme left party that possibly will have a majority (today) and nothing good will come of that for the Greeks.

Anyway what happened with Portugal and Ireland is going to happen with many western countries that are globally living about what they can sustain, increasing a debt and not diminishing the deficit. Ireland and Portugal were the first two to that have managed to control that. Certainly the so called "austerity" was hard but I am no sure that it was a bad thing to be the first to have to adapt to the new reality. Probably that will give them an advantage over others that will have to pass later by the same process.

Well, I wish all these countries all possible good luck in getting out of the current situation. It is not the people's fault, and it's a shame that they should suffer such terrible punishment. I'm not sure the medium-term prospects in any of them are as bright as you describe -- all of them suffer from a fiscal quagmire, economic stagnation, huge unemployment, with no end in sight. Portugal and Greece have fallen behind, or are about to fall behind, even former Communist countries like Estonia, Russia, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovenia, etc., in terms of GDP per capita, and it cannot be said that these countries enjoy a material standard of living which is really European. Whether that's "poor" or not is relative, of course, but there is a lot of daylight between Greece's or Portugal's 25,000/capita -- more comparable to Chile or Kazakhstan -- and the 40,000 or more which is typical in Northern Europe.

Concerning the political history of these countries -- I was absolutely wrong concerning Portugal, and thanks for the correction. Portugal is a gap in my knowledge of European history, and I shouldn't write about things I don't know about . Indeed there's a lot more to it than Salazar and it looks really interesting. For penance, I will do some reading.

Concerning kings sailing and so forth -- you find this in African countries, too. The point is to what extent sailing is widespread among ordinary people, and nowhere that I know of, including the U.S. as far as I know, was the sport really widespread already as early as the early part of the last century, like it was in the UK and Sweden.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by KnuckleDragger

Polux.
For the record, Sequitur, although an impressive voyage, didn't circumnavigate.

Yes you are right. I had that impression but what they had done was coming from Vancouver along the East coast of North America, Central and South America, they passed the Horn and went up along the Coast of South America to the Caribbean. Those two like to go slow and enjoy different cultures while voyaging. No they are doing the same in Europe not by the sea but by the rivers on a barge.

My wife is trying to convince me to do that for ages but I don't think she is going to get lucky. I prefer to do that by car.
Welcome Aboard

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

Given the number of cases I would say that at least some Hunter models have rudder problems but that is just a thing you have to check out if you buy a Hunter. The above circumnavigator on a Hunter 34 said about that:

"I think the design of the rudder is quite strong enough but the construction was poor hence my choice to strengthen....The rudder is the original but reinforced with a sheathing of 2 layers of 2 oz GRP"

Lightly built spade rudders are just more suseptable to failure, I have had personal experience with my first offshore boat, a C&C. It just makes sense to really have them gone over and reinforced. Personally I would rather lose the mast than a rudder offshore.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Portugal... economic stagnation, huge unemployment, with no end in sight. .....

As I said you are not well informed. The two first graphics show the reduction of unemployment and the last one the inversion of the economic growth that is now positive and it will be of 1.5% this year. Not big but coming from a negative growth and clearly increasing at the same time that the deficit will be reduced from 4% to 2.5%. Portugal has on the last year outperformed all previsions of growing , unemployment and deficit reduction made by the EC experts. Not great but definitively an improvement with a growth bigger than on many European countries and with a growing tendency while many have a downward tendency.
https://www.conference-board.org/data/globaloutlook/






http://www.portugal.gov.pt/pt/os-min...s-oe-2015.aspx

[Training Wheels]

Wow, there's like 3 different threads going on simultaneously here!


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[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Training Wheels

Wow, there's like 3 different threads going on simultaneously here!



Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

Welcome to CF that's how the ball rolls here!

[Polux]

On topic again, another mass production boat that served as living aboard boat for 15 years, the first 6 while dreaming with a circumnavigation and the last 9 years circumnavigating slowly and doing enough miles to have circumnavigated twice. Martin and Anne Breving from Norway, the crew, have a great website, very interesting to all that dream to circumnavigate with lots of information.
The boat, Siglar a Gib' Sea 11.6.

9 Years on the 7 Seas with Nor Siglar







They talk about their boat and why they choose it:

"After having looked at a variety of sailboats, we finally chose a modern production boat constructed of hand laid fiberglass for the following reasons:
In contrast to the traditional full keeled, heavy displacement designs, we thought a lighter displacement, high performance cruiser-racer would give us superior sailing ability, higher speed and greater comfort. The size would be easy for a middle-aged couple to handle, while providing ample interior space and stowage, and still be large enough for a sea kindly motion....

With a few exceptions, we have been very satisfied with NOR SIGLAR. Sailing-wise she has performed well in all conditions, which we have encountered. The light displacement, high ratio main and fin keel make her very fast in light winds. She also sails very well high into the wind, which we have found to be extremely important. Contrary to common belief, sailing around the world is not all downwind sailing. This is wishful thinking. Time and again, we have experienced conditions with wind on the nose where it should have been on the stern, even in "so-called" trade wind areas. Gone are the days of predictable weather patterns. Weather systems all over the world are no longer what they used to be.

Another positive feature with the Gib'Sea is that when the sails are properly set, the boat is well balanced with no weather helm. This is evident from the fact that rudder, shaft and steering mechanisms are still the originals after 56,000 nautical miles. Further, the boat must be well built since there is no sign of any hull or interior bulkhead movements or leaks anywhere. All doors and cupboards are still totally in place, no signs of movements or warping. After hitting a reef in Indonesia at 4 knots and having survived considerable abuse from the towing off and rescuing operation, there are no signs of the keel separating from the hull, nor damage to rig, mast or rudder.

We discovered two construction weaknesses. The beam across the cabin top that supports the mast on top of the compression post is not one solid piece or section. At one point, it started to move sideways and had to be bolted to the deck to prevent it from "slipping" further. Also, we had to strengthen the deck connection to the bulkhead under the genoa fair lead track since the deck here was "lifting" in very strong winds."

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

On topic again, another mass production boat that served as living aboard boat for 15 years, the first 6 while dreaming with a circumnavigation and the last 9 years circumnavigating slowly and doing enough miles to have circumnavigated twice. Martin and Anne Breving from Norway, the crew, have a great website, very interesting to all that dream to circumnavigate with lots of information.
The boat, Siglar a Gib' Sea 11.6.

9 Years on the 7 Seas with Nor Siglar







They talk about their boat and why they choose it:

"After having looked at a variety of sailboats, we finally chose a modern production boat constructed of hand laid fiberglass for the following reasons:
In contrast to the traditional full keeled, heavy displacement designs, we thought a lighter displacement, high performance cruiser-racer would give us superior sailing ability, higher speed and greater comfort. The size would be easy for a middle-aged couple to handle, while providing ample interior space and stowage, and still be large enough for a sea kindly motion....

With a few exceptions, we have been very satisfied with NOR SIGLAR. Sailing-wise she has performed well in all conditions, which we have encountered. The light displacement, high ratio main and fin keel make her very fast in light winds. She also sails very well high into the wind, which we have found to be extremely important. Contrary to common belief, sailing around the world is not all downwind sailing. This is wishful thinking. Time and again, we have experienced conditions with wind on the nose where it should have been on the stern, even in "so-called" trade wind areas. Gone are the days of predictable weather patterns. Weather systems all over the world are no longer what they used to be.

Another positive feature with the Gib'Sea is that when the sails are properly set, the boat is well balanced with no weather helm. This is evident from the fact that rudder, shaft and steering mechanisms are still the originals after 56,000 nautical miles. Further, the boat must be well built since there is no sign of any hull or interior bulkhead movements or leaks anywhere. All doors and cupboards are still totally in place, no signs of movements or warping. After hitting a reef in Indonesia at 4 knots and having survived considerable abuse from the towing off and rescuing operation, there are no signs of the keel separating from the hull, nor damage to rig, mast or rudder.

We discovered two construction weaknesses. The beam across the cabin top that supports the mast on top of the compression post is not one solid piece or section. At one point, it started to move sideways and had to be bolted to the deck to prevent it from "slipping" further. Also, we had to strengthen the deck connection to the bulkhead under the genoa fair lead track since the deck here was "lifting" in very strong winds."

We met this couple, very nice people. Those older Gibseas were quite well built and were built to a better standard than the new boats.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Polux

As I said you are not well informed. The two first graphics show the reduction of unemployment and the last one the inversion of the economic growth that is now positive and it will be of 1.5% this year. Not big but coming from a negative growth and clearly increasing at the same time that the deficit will be reduced from 4% to 2.5%. Portugal has on the last year outperformed all previsions of growing , unemployment and deficit reduction made by the EC experts. Not great but definitively an improvement with a growth bigger than on many European countries and with a growing tendency while many have a downward tendency.
https://www.conference-board.org/data/globaloutlook/






http://www.portugal.gov.pt/pt/os-min...s-oe-2015.aspx

About history, you are right -- not well informed.

About economics, however, on the contrary. It's my profession! And a good friend of mine works in the Portuguese central bank!

The economic situation is rather dire.

The Portuguese have done a heroic job with deficits -- alone among the -- shall we call them, IGSP countries, since the other name is offensive. This cost a huge amount of pain and is much to be admired .

But the situation with unemployment is horrifying -- the overall statistic (more than 14%) is bad enough, but the worst is not shown in those statistics -- up to 50% unemployment among young people, and a great number of young people who have been unemployed for 5 or more years, which means permanent damage to their careers. That's a lost generation -- there will be negative economic echoes for decades to come.

And GDP growth is horrible -- long term growth trends in Portugal are stagnant for decades. Portugal was once twice as rich as former Communist countries Poland or Russia or Estonia; now all of these countries have caught up and will soon pass (I guess Slovenia already did). If long term trends continue, Portugal will within a decade be the poorest country in Europe and will be passed even by many Latin American countries, not to mention China. If I were Portuguese, I would find this totally unacceptable!

Whose fault is it? It's hard to point a finger, and many of the causes are not even inside Portugal. Certainly, it's not the people's fault. Part of the problem is simply the unsuitability of different EU policies to lower income countries, especially the loss of a national currency and thus monetary policy, where Greece is the most glaring example. But Portugal needs to do something -- reform is desperately needed. Maybe a page from Estonia's book would help. Lower taxes and concentration on competitiveness would really help. Something needs to be done; you can't just sit and wait for things to get better!

Of course since 2008 there is not a single major economy in the Western world which does not have a plethora of different problems. But not all of these problems are equal -- the situation in IGSP is on an altogether different level from that in Northern Europe, and could turn into full blown economic collapse if there are any other global economic shocks.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

About history, you are right -- not well informed.

About economics, however, on the contrary. It's my profession! And a good friend of mine works in the Portuguese central bank!
....
But the situation with unemployment is horrifying -- the overall statistic (more than 14%) is bad enough, but the worst is not shown in those statistics -- up to 50% unemployment among young people, and a great number of young people who have been unemployed for 5 or more years, which means permanent damage to their careers. That's a lost generation -- there will be negative economic echoes for decades to come.
....
Whose fault is it? It's hard to point a finger, and many of the causes are not even inside Portugal. Certainly, it's not the people's fault. Part of the problem is simply the unsuitability of different EU policies to lower income countries, especially the loss of a national currency and thus monetary policy, where Greece is the most glaring example. But Portugal needs to do something -- reform is desperately needed. Maybe a page from Estonia's book would help. Lower taxes and concentration on competitiveness would really help. Something needs to be done; you can't just sit and wait for things to get better!

Of course since 2008 there is not a single major economy in the Western world which does not have a plethora of different problems. But not all of these problems are equal -- the situation in IGSP is on an altogether different level from that in Northern Europe, and could turn into full blown economic collapse if there are any other global economic shocks.

I will say not actualized then

The unemployment between young people is also diminishing and is now about 37, 38%.
O retrato do desemprego jovem em Portugal - Infografias - Jornal de Negócios

I know what is the problem and even if not going to develop it here it has to do with politicians promising impossible things (and borrowing money increasing deficit to pay them) and with the unreality of excessive labor protection that comes from the times post revolution that translates in a less competitive market for investment.

These hard times had served not only for doing reforms that could never have been made out of hardship (due to the contrast between what people used to see as their inalienable rights and economic reality to pay them) as to promote a real education regarding economic realty and politics in what concerns citizens. I believe that what happened in Greece today, with a extreme left party winning the elections would be impossible here. People do not believe in miracles anymore neither in Politicians that make crazy promises.

The Ex prime minister (Socialist) that was the major responsible for the excessive dept and deficit of the country is now in Jail waiting trial for corruption. Things are changing and the markets that are always the better judges of the solidity of economies are offering money at the lowest rate on a decade and for each market operation to sell debt there are 3 times more demand than offer.

I hope you are wrong, the signs seem positive to me, specially the ones that regards the better performance regarding objectives to be fulfilled (reducing deficit and growth) then the ones established by the Troika. Regarding all this the contrast with Greece is so big that there is no possible comparison.

[Training Wheels]

I thought this was supposed to be about boats?


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[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

On topic again: Mass production boats that have circumnavigated or sailed extensively and this time two Hunters with the same sailor, a famous one, Mick
Harker. He had three Hunters, started with a 34 that he sailed on the East US coast down to Mexico and up, passed to a Hunter 466 that was sailed extensively crossing several times the Atlantic and finally to his last boat, a Hunter 49 with whom he circumnavigated. He was obviously satisfied with Hunter sailboats and said nice things about them. About the 466:

“My Hunter has sailed through three gale force storms, It hasn’t had a crack or a creak.My 466 is one of the best boats out there. It’s got a light displacement, it’s fast, maneuverable, stable and solid. I’m so happy with my choice, I tell people about it all the time!"
Wanderlust Lures Sailor on Worldwide Voyages that Combine Work with Thrill and Adventure
Mike Harker Passes Away at 64 | Cruising World
Wanderlust 3 Sailing Adventure - Mike Harker: February 2008

His boats were named Waterlust, I, II and III.

OK back to boats. Polux this sailor who is promoting Hunter makes a statement about the strength and durability of this boat offshore but as Jon has brought to your attention the rudder failed. I'm sure he was a good guy but his bias is so slanted its unreal, even the words he is using seem to have been prepared by the Hunter marketing dept. Don't you think these types of personal referrals are really over the top. Like Jon I would be real surprised if he didn't get a real large discount on his 49 to pay for those referrals. mind you i had similar thoughts about John Neale and H R.