Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

"Can a production boat make an ocean passage safely?"

Yes.......

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

So is the question, "Can a production boat handle the same sea conditions, for its lifetime, as a boat built for ocean passages can for its lifetime?"

Or is it, "Can a production boat make an ocean passage safely?"

No Julie, on these kinds of threads is more my boat X is as good as your boat Y even though I only spent Z.

But I do want to make a contribution to this thread by stating that I think the cruising lines from Beneteau, Jeaneau seem to fit most cruisers needs. I see many of them out there with many happy folks aboard. A friend and his wife have been living aboard their Hanse 54 and cruising the Med for several years, and they like their boat. There seems to be a good boat out there, meeting most anyone's price point and suited for their intended need, new or used. And a plug for catamarans which seem to be forgotten on this thread so far, obviously Leopards and Lagoons must be somewhat capable since they are delivered to North America via the overwater route.

No right or wrong answer, it mostly comes down to how much money one has to spend, one's comfort level with amenities and one's confidence in the boats ability to get from point A to point B safely utilizing the crew that you have available.

[TanzerTom]

Thanks for the new thread. The blue believer and practical production promoter conflict has, in fact, been very beneficial for me. Learned a lot from both sides, the summary of which is that I don't need a blue believer boat, would not enjoy their sailing characteristics where I'll be sailing and how I'll use the boat I buy. So that decision is over. That said, however, IF I could find a Contessa 32 in my price/condition range I'd buy it. Love the way it looks and the way it moves through the water in the videos as much as it's considerable capabilities... whether I need or want those capabilities. The so called coastal cruiser is what I need and will enjoy most so expanding on that topic and moving on from the blue water vs not blue water conflict is good.

The information on maneuverability in tight spaces is especially important to me as I will be doing a lot of day/weekend single hand sailing which means ease of getting in and out of slips is as important to me as the way the boat performs out on the water. Prop walk, barn door rudders, skeg rudders, spade rudders, etc. now have meaning to me and will influence which boat I buy almost as much a how she will look a I paddle away from her at an anchorage. A pain in the ass to get in/out of slip will eventually mean less sailing for me.

Ease of handling, especially when conditions get iffy, is also important. In my advancing age, I have found cranking in a 150 genny on a 30'+ boat is a physical challenge after a couple of tacks. The Freedom 28,32 appeal to me for that reason. There are other more traditions boats that are also easier to handle for various reasons and I hope this thread expands on that.

Upwind performance is always a priority as it seems whether I'm racing or not (not a biggy anymore) I'm always going against the wind! Being able to avoid a lee shore lurks in the back of my mind.

Sailing around in the graveyard of the Atlantic, ICW, shallow sounds, etc. of NC/SC dictate a shoal draft whether I like the compromise in performance or not. Expansion on which shoal draft boats and rig combination go to windward best is also something I look forward to.

Motors and systems are a seeming black hole to many former day sailors with mostly inland lakes and coastal sound experience. From this and other forums I'd get the idea that diesels are of constant concern for various reasons including fuel condition, exhaust issues, propeller/shaft issues, cooling, alternators, etc. Yet they are also touted as the best machines produced by mankind. Guess the squeaky wheels get the grease.

GPS, chartplotters, and other electronics are also a mystery to those who only had charts, dept meters, and compasses in previous experience. Info on how old is too old even if working properly would be a beneficial discussion.

Sails. How does one with limited experience on 30'+ boat tell when they are shot when first looking at various boats? Worn looking and dirty sails are easy to spot... what about age and other considerations?

Finally, it seems many of the more blue water sailors would not set foot on a boat with standing rigging over ten years old no matter what. Given that most production boats spend the majority of their time at the dock and face little in the way of serious weather, how important is age to the rigs and for that matter the motors?? I'm looking at boats built from '75 to late 80s. Old? Yes. Hard use? Doubtful if you buy the floating condo charges. How much is age a factor vs hard use and what are the indian signs?

So, sorry for the long post but I think many folk looking to this forum for information will be interested in these issues AS THEY RELATE TO THE COASTAL CRUISER??

Again, thanks for all the info so far! And thanks to Smack for separating a thread for the majority of us likely to never circumnavigate.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

So is the question, "Can a production boat handle the same sea conditions, for its lifetime, as a boat built for ocean passages can for its lifetime?"

The answer is, it dosent have to....... and there may lie the big difference..And I'm not saying the seas have changed over the last hunderd years, as we know they havent, but its us as humans that have changed, we've learned more about the seas, when to travel and when not, the routes and seasons to use and Oh, Yes, the electronics we now have avalable.
Personally I feel the performance issues in all have inproved.. Where you hear some say, "you cant out-run a storm" and that might be right, but with what I have avalable to me now, I'm nowhere around a storm, I can track the highs and lows, I know the seasons for storms, where to be and where not too be, and if one does rarely pop up, I've got at least 48 hours knowledge and with the performance hull, I can be 4 to 5 hundred miles away befor it hits the area..
So I really can run from a storm in a production boat..........

If its a Life span and how long will they last. Ours is 30 + years old and we're about to head out again.. so how long will they last... Longer than I will, I'm sure....

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

So is the question, "Can a production boat handle the same sea conditions, for its lifetime, as a boat built for ocean passages can for its lifetime?"

Or is it, "Can a production boat make an ocean passage safely?"

The later is my opinion, yes any production boat can cross oceans. Your first question is a completely different question and I guess the correct answer is. That depends! The new boats are built to a CE rating which allows the builders to construct the boat to take a certain number of cycles in its lifetime so there are opinions that if these boats are ridden hard and put away wet that their life span will be somewhat limited.
The better built boats like HR or there equivelent are still built in a manner that would suggest that they will have a much longer life but 99% of the sailboats these days Don,t go anywhere anyways so why build them better than needed? If you plan to do a circumnavigation or a quick trip to the Med and back then buy something like Smacks Hunter as it will likely get you there and back if you stick to the trade wind belt. If you are planning on being out for a lifetime of voyaging then from the feedback I have gotten there are much better choices.

[Polux]

Third blog of the day: A cheap Beneteau Cyclades 50.3, bought new in 2006 and sailed extensively for 6 years (almost a circumnavigation). Their owners said about the boat on the blog when they sold it:

....as Bondi Tram has been sold in New Zealand! All good things come to an end sooner or later, and we are settling back in Sydney for the moment.
Below is a photo taken coming in to Bequia in the Caribbean, in February 2011. We have a framed copy of this photo for a nostalgic glance once in a while.
Bondi Tram was a great boat, and we had very few problems during the six years that we owned her. Very strong, easy to handle, and reasonably quick. Beneteau make great yachts at amazing prices."



Bondi Tram - The Launch
Bondi Tram - Peter Colquhoun and Sandra Colquhoun

[Julie Mor]

Maybe this:
Given that each boat in the pairings are about the same age, about the same size, will log the same number of miles (we'll say 20,000 for now) in the same open-ocean conditions (let's say up to Force 8), which one will emerge with the least number of build related problems? (Occupant's sailing skills are the same.)

Hunter or Hallberg-Rassy?

Catalina or Contest?

Beneteau or Oyster?

Bavaria or Hinkley?

Dufour or Morris?

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Lagoons must be somewhat capable since they are delivered to North America via the overwater route.

Lagoons are shipped to NA unless the owner buys in Europe and chooses otherwise.

Mark

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

Maybe this:
Given that each boat in the pairings are about the same age, about the same size, will log the same number of miles (we'll say 20,000 for now) in the same open-ocean conditions (let's say up to Force 8), which one will emerge with the least number of build related problems? (Occupant's sailing skills are the same.)

Hunter or Hallberg-Rassy?

Catalina or Contest?

Beneteau or Oyster?

Bavaria or Hinkley?

Dufour or Morris?

Guess you didnt read my post Julie, why would anyone in their right mind want to ride out a Force 8 storm... You dont have to.... unless thats your goal, and if so, better buy a really heavy, very slow, non-performing slug..

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

Maybe this:
Given that each boat in the pairings are about the same age, about the same size, will log the same number of miles (we'll say 20,000 for now) in the same open-ocean conditions (let's say up to Force 8), which one will emerge with the least number of build related problems? (Occupant's sailing skills are the same.)

Hunter or Hallberg-Rassy?

Catalina or Contest?

Beneteau or Oyster?

Bavaria or Hinkley?

Dufour or Morris?

Julie my friend, this is the wine Smack drinks and why he set this thread up. You are wasting your time, he will out Google anyone. He will find a picture of a Contest getting the bottom done and suggest that there is a major hidden failure and use such expressions as "dangerous" and "Bingo".

You already know the answer and you know the type of boat you are looking for and the reasons behind it. I would avoid this thread if I were you because you will learn absolutely nothing and you may get a few stabs in the process. Just my opinion of course.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

I've got at least 48 hours knowledge and with the performance hull, I can be 4 to 5 hundred miles away befor it hits the area..
So I really can run from a storm in a production boat..........

If its a Life span and how long will they last. Ours is 30 + years old and we're about to head out again.. so how long will they last... Longer than I will, I'm sure....

That is truly a performance hull you have - most 42' boats would have a difficult time averaging consecutive 200-250nm days.

As for lifespans, how old was the blue water Hans Christian "Rebel Heart"?

JulieMor - I'm pretty sure all those boats in your list are production boats. Few of them are bespoke - maybe the Oyster to some extent.

Mark

[Julie Mor]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Guess you didnt read my post Julie, why would anyone in their right mind want to ride out a Force 8 storm... You dont have to.... unless thats your goal, and if so, better buy a really heavy, very slow, non-performing slug..

I don't know anyone who wants to ride out a Force 8 storm but have read many stories of sailors doing just that. Sometimes Mother Nature has different plans than you.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

Guess you didnt read my post Julie, why would anyone in their right mind want to ride out a Force 8 storm... You dont have to.... unless thats your goal, and if so, better buy a really heavy, very slow, non-performing slug..

Randy I'm not sure that is being fair with this Lady. Yes if one sticks to the easy peasy trade wind belt then we all know the weather is quite predictable and the rough stuff can be avoided for the most part. But we also have seen keels fall of and boats break apart in the same ocean when traveling a bit north. If this couple decides to sail in areas where there are few cruisers then the weather patterns are no where near as predictable and the possibility of getting into force 8 weather enroute is very real.
.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

Maybe this:
Given that each boat in the pairings are about the same age, about the same size, will log the same number of miles (we'll say 20,000 for now) in the same open-ocean conditions (let's say up to Force 8), which one will emerge with the least number of build related problems? (Occupant's sailing skills are the same.)

Hunter or Hallberg-Rassy?

Catalina or Contest?

Beneteau or Oyster?

Bavaria or Hinkley?

Dufour or Morris?

Maybe it should be rephrased as which boat will have the least problems:

$2M or $200k

$1M or $100k

Of course the second part of that is which boat gets to where you want to go during 20,000 miles at the best price in the long run? I bet it isn't the $1M or $2M boat.

Money definitely gets you a nicer boat. But that doesn't mean it does the job any better as far as things that matter.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

The answer is, it dosent have to....... and there may lie the big difference..And I'm not saying the seas have changed over the last hunderd years, as we know they havent, but its us as humans that have changed, we've learned more about the seas, when to travel and when not, the routes and seasons to use and Oh, Yes, the electronics we now have avalable.
Personally I feel the performance issues in all have inproved.. Where you hear some say, "you cant out-run a storm" and that might be right, but with what I have avalable to me now, I'm nowhere around a storm, I can track the highs and lows, I know the seasons for storms, where to be and where not too be, and if one does rarely pop up, I've got at least 48 hours knowledge and with the performance hull, I can be 4 to 5 hundred miles away befor it hits the area..
So I really can run from a storm in a production boat..........

If its a Life span and how long will they last. Ours is 30 + years old and we're about to head out again.. so how long will they last... Longer than I will, I'm sure....

I agree with some of your comments but I can tell you that while weather reporting has improved by leaps and bounds there are many times each year that the best meteorologists get fooled. Sailing in the trade wind belt is generally pretty easy but even in the South Pacific we and the weather gurus were surprised when we ran into a convergence zone that saw winds over 50 knots. A boat 30 miles in front of us was knocked down 3 times. Fortunately we were not that far out of Niue so only had to deal with it for 14 hours. We got our butts kicked going into New Zealand when a little low popped up out of nowhere so while I do really watch the weather I still plan for the worst in some areas we have sailed. Your Benni is a wonderful boat and is quite quick but I think if you average 150 miles per day on a long passage you are doing well..200-250 days are not in the cards unless you have some crazy current behind you. Also keep in mind you have a stick built boat which shares nothing with todays full liners although it wouldn't surprise me if your boat did last another 30 years.