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Old 04-01-2015, 12:18   #241
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by smackdaddy View Post
Are you an NA, engineer, or builder?

I've personally not claimed anything other than I accept the CE standards instituted by those professionals. In other words, I trust in their credibility - not my own. If you're one of these pros, I'll listen. If you're not - I probably won't.

Again, I don't mind pushback at all. But as sailorboy said earlier - the dismissal of the CE standard as some nefarious industry tool that manufacturers dreamed up is a bit beyond the pale of "push back"...especially when it comes from people that are none of the above.

We all have to choose whom to believe. I've chosen.

The crazy part is that some people just like to believe even when the obvious is in front of your face, I guess authority speaks louder than common sense.

Lets just take one part of this "standard" and look at it, something you don't need an Engineering degree to understand.

Brass skin fittings and or thru hulls instead of bronze. Brass has a limited life in sea water, manufacturers suggest they be replaced every 5 years and this is part of the CE class A offshore ratings. Somewhere along the way you are going to have to pull the boat and remove and replace everyone of your fittings and this is not cheap as the new boats are all built with hull liners making it more difficult to get at these for service in many cases.

Are you so gullible that you believe the Engineers are setting standards that protect the owners or when giving it a little thought do you come to the conclusion that these ratings are in place to allow the manufacturers to produce a boat as cheaply as possible even when it means passing on huge expense to owners that don't know the difference. Would owners not pay the additional costs to have bronze skin fittings installed knowing that the few extra dollars up front would save them thousands later??

Smack wants to put his trust in the Engineers that work for the builders even if they suggest that fender washers under the main traveler and deck cleats meet the rating.

You see some stuff is not hard to figure out even for a layman. The next question is if this is what the "code" is for all the stuff you can see what do they do where you can't. NeilP and Minaret have shown you pictures of some of that build quality.

What does all this mean, well we know you can cross an ocean in pretty much anything that floats and you don't need a tough boat to make a trade wind crossing or circumnavigation so pretty much any of these boats will do the trick but in the very odd case some of these boats have sailed into weather that caused the boat to fail which some folks don't like to think about.
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:24   #242
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Regardless of what codes/standards are being referenced, remember most if not all are MINIMUM requirements in one form or another..
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:28   #243
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Well, standards are made by ISO (and ABYC which is nowadays going more towards ISO standards too) and most of the manufacturers follow these standars as they are mandatory for the most part of the markets.
CE markings and categories are set by the EC. Boat categories are based in pretty simple rules and formulas which concentrate in stability, flooding angles and floating ability. Nothing to do with valves, materials or scantlings.


BR Teddy
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:30   #244
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Regardless of what codes/standards are being referenced, remember most if not all are MINIMUM requirements in one form or another..
You are of course right although in the case of brass thru hulls every European boat builder I know uses them. American boat builders used to always use bronze and it would be nice to hear that they still do although I don't know
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:33   #245
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Well, standards are made by ISO (and ABYC which is nowadays going more towards ISO standards too) and most of the manufacturers follow these standars as they are mandatory for the most part of the markets.
CE markings and categories are set by the EC. Boat categories are based in pretty simple rules and formulas which concentrate in stability, flooding angles and floating ability. Nothing to do with valves, materials or scantlings.


BR Teddy
Hey Teddy,
So what rating is in effect when the builders use an inferior product in their building process, ie: Brass fittings underwater. ??
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:37   #246
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
Well, standards are made by ISO (and ABYC which is nowadays going more towards ISO standards too) and most of the manufacturers follow these standars as they are mandatory for the most part of the markets.
CE markings and categories are set by the EC. Boat categories are based in pretty simple rules and formulas which concentrate in stability, flooding angles and floating ability. Nothing to do with valves, materials or scantlings.


BR Teddy
Another thought, so what you are inferring is that as a builder as long as I meet the stability figures, flooding angles and floating ability no matter how cheap and shoddy my build is I can still meet the CE rating standards??
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:38   #247
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Be nice, remember we are discussing CE standards so if one boat builder can use fender washers or brass fittings they all can because that is the standard. Has nothing to do with with other boat builders because its just the standards we are talking about and I am sure many builders do not build to the lowest possible standards but some obviously do.
FINALLY, this seems to be getting closer to what is, imho, the more interesting & potentially educational part of the "debate." Or the next level anyway. It's not the obvious & increasingly mindless recounting of how many "A"-rated production boats are out there doing long-distance voyaging. Not to say this isn't relevant, significant, or interesting, because it is. But we already know all this, just like we know that aging boats will generally require more maintenance and potentially suffer more breakdowns. To continue reciting these facts is just preaching to the choir. Unless preaching to the choir is the real agenda here.

The bottom line is that there's a huge disparity in base purchase prices b'twn. the mass-produced boats vs. the ones that seem to enjoy an unqualifiedly good "bluewater" reputation. On one recent thread some suggested numbers were around $300K for a 50' Bene vs. $1.1M for a comparably sized Hallsberg-Rossy, to cite just one example. Some of this disparity is obviously accounted for in modern, robotic assembly lines, and some of it is in less expensive interiors (which many buyers prefer in any event). But the real nub of this debate in my mind is how much, if any, of the disparity results in flimsier construction and whether it matters to seaworthiness. The rest of this just seems to be cheerleading for one side or the other which I find rather boring.

And maybe somebody can explain all the defensiveness & indignation of the HunterFanBoys & others who own or admire the mass-produced boats. I guess I had never heard any of the reported bashing before reading forums, so I'm at a loss. When it comes to sailing, less expensive alternatives are a good thing, right? But can't we all expect trade-offs when we buy a product that costs 3-4 times less than whatever the "gold standard" might be? Why is learning about those trade-offs so offensive to some? Seriously, I'm not trying to be flip or fecetious here -- I really don't understand it. If someone told me about a credible flaw on my Bristol or with a series of similar Bristol's, I'd only be grateful so I could go about trying to correct it. What's the BFD??
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:40   #248
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Here is an excerpt from the manual of a 33 Hunter, 2005. The vessel in the original post looks to be one generation older, and a somewhat larger.

Hunter makes it quite clear what the breaking strength of the cleat is, (8947.4 Pf), and also interestingly, states that the strength of lines/chains shall not exceed 80% of the breaking point of the cleat. I believe this is to move the failure point to the line/chain, which is to say that if the boat is about to break loose, it stands a better chance of survival with the hull being intact.

The manual does not indicate the presence of backing plates.

Can anyone post the breaking points of a more stout boat for discussion?

Oh hells, I put this in the wrong thread!
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:47   #249
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Hey Teddy,
So what rating is in effect when the builders use an inferior product in their building process, ie: Brass fittings underwater. ??
No rating IMO. The standard says these should show NO sign of wear or corrosion in a time period of five years. I don't believe a brass fitting fulfills that requirement
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:50   #250
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pirate Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
Another thought, so what you are inferring is that as a builder as long as I meet the stability figures, flooding angles and floating ability no matter how cheap and shoddy my build is I can still meet the CE rating standards??
Just need the appropriate labels and stickers..
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:52   #251
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Another thought, so what you are inferring is that as a builder as long as I meet the stability figures, flooding angles and floating ability no matter how cheap and shoddy my build is I can still meet the CE rating standards??
No, just that CE categories indicate how a boat behaves in a certain sea state. There's a formula called STIX which determines which category boat has..

ISO standards indicate how well it should be build.

These are two different things.
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:52   #252
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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No rating IMO. The standard says these should show NO sign of wear or corrosion in a time period of five years. I don't believe a brass fitting fulfills that requirement
BR Teddy
Mmmm! I was hoping to learn something as obviously I was under the impression that this was part of the CE rating. What standard does the hull and scantlings come under??
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:52   #253
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

Another Bavaria 36 that circumnavigated not once, but twice and one of them by the horn, solo with a Portuguese sailor. This is a MKI of the Bavaria 36 I talked about already and circumnavigated also (solo sailed too) a slightly older model this one (1998). The sailor was Genuino Madruga, a fisherman from Açores. The boat was called Hemingway:

Genuíno Madruga em volta ao Mundo





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Old 04-01-2015, 12:56   #254
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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No, just that CE categories indicate how a boat behaves in a certain sea state. There's a formula called STIX which determines which category boat has..

ISO standards indicate how well it should be build.

These are two different things.
OK I understand and I am learning something. ISO standards to my knowledge is a standard that any industry has to meet in manufacturing something, correct? How are these standards set for sailboat building?
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Old 04-01-2015, 12:57   #255
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Re: Production Boats Fit For Blue Water

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Originally Posted by TeddyDiver View Post
No, just that CE categories indicate how a boat behaves in a certain sea state. There's a formula called STIX which determines which category boat has..

ISO standards indicate how well it should be build.

These are two different things.
Regarding the STIX, it is not enough to determine the boat class but it is one of the factors (a boat cannot be on a given class if it has a STIX inferior to a given value, the minimum one for that class).
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