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Dulcesuenos · 05-04-2016, 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

Interesting to know if the yacht floated with the keel missing or if its just being supported by a reef. I guess with enough foam insultion (say 2-3 inches) it could possibly be quite bouyant without the keel, especially with a couple of watertight compartments at the ends.

Very sad, maybe a good case to wear a life jacket and tether anytime your offshore or nearshore on a mono. I imagine it could go over pretty fast losing a keel and catch someone unaware very easily. I for one get complacent in my feeling of "safety" especially in calm weather, it is sad it takes a tragedy like this to remind us anything can happen.

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Polux · 05-04-2016, 05:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Very sad, maybe a good case to wear a life jacket and tether anytime your offshore or nearshore on a mono. I imagine it could go over pretty fast losing a keel and catch someone unaware very easily. I for one get complacent in my feeling of "safety" especially in calm weather, it is sad it takes a tragedy like this to remind us anything can happen....

Some, even racing, had the good fortune to be survive the loss of a keel and even be sailed thousands of miles without it to a safe port but that seems to be an exclusive ability of very beamy boats with a lot of form stability, like the ones with an hull based on Open boats.

LakeSuperior · 05-04-2016, 05:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dulcesuenos

Very sad, maybe a good case to wear a life jacket and tether anytime your offshore or nearshore on a mono. I imagine it could go over pretty fast losing a keel and catch someone unaware very easily. I for one get complacent in my feeling of "safety" especially in calm weather, it is sad it takes a tragedy like this to remind us anything can happen.

Sent from my PLT1077G using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

If the keel is lost when you are tethered in with a life jacket and the boat rolls upside down the tether would keep one under the deck or cockpit. This assumes the tether doesn't let you go over the side during normal sailing. When the automatic jacket inflates you are pinned to the upside down deck in a tangled mess unable to move to release the tether and swim out. By the time things are sorted out you are breathing sea water.

Since your odds are you will get hit by lightening three times (I'm making this number up for emphasis) before your keel falls off it's OK to be complacent. A lot of other things will kill you many times before losing the keel.

robert sailor · 05-04-2016, 05:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polux

Some, even racing, had the good fortune to be survive the loss of a keel and even be sailed thousands of miles without it to a safe port but that seems to be an exclusive ability of very beamy boats with a lot of form stability, like the ones with an hull based on Open boats.

Yup a friend with a Hunter hit a rock and lost his keel while motoring and because of the very wide beam he was able to go right back to the marina

Lizzy Belle · 05-04-2016, 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

when you are tethered in with a life jacket and the boat rolls upside down the tether would keep one under the deck or cockpit.

A tether is like a seat belt: it will safe your life in most scenarios, but will cost you your life in some.

And sailing is just like living on land: sometimes horrible accidents happen, and people lose their lives. It's sad and tragic, but we all accept risks - be it driving a car on the highway or sailing at sea. You simply can't avoid all risks, so no point in dwelling on it too much.

**estarzinger** · 05-04-2016, 05:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

V
Those samoas (depending on the exact model) have a high ballast ratio and a fairly narrow fin keel, but the engineering should be capable of dealing with the loads, and long term fatigue issues. It would be interesting to hear from Evans. Hawk was a near sistership.

If the boat was built to the 'welded on keel' plans, there is no way, zero possibility, the keel would come off cleanly. The keel should have been brought up into the boat and tied into 3 structural ring frames and floors every 60 cm and then perimeter welded both sides. The boat would rip apart before the keel came off.

My assumption had been that this was a bolted on keel. That has been done on a number of samoas, because it allows much easier trucking of the boat. With the welded keel and hard dodger the boat is too tall to go under many highway bridges. So, quite a number have had bolt on keels to allow keel removal for trucking.

If it was bolted on, the bolts had seen a lot of miles and might well have sheared on reef impact. If it was a welded on keel, the shipyard f&*ked up big time.

The boat 'should have had' 3 'water tight bulkheads (per the plans). Behind the anchor locker and behind the sail locker and in front of the rudder post. But as I have mentioned elsewhere, many (most ?) watertight bulkheads are more water resistant than gas tight, and often watertight doors and air vets/dorades are not closed (especially in the tropics). My guess has been that they the hit the reef, sheared the bolts, and flipped instantly and the bulkheads did not come into it.

and the crew has low survival possibilities no matter what they do in that situation - pounded into razor sharp coral, or trapped under the boat by tether.

robert sailor · 05-04-2016, 06:01

There are risks associated with offshore sailing and if there weren't it would lose some attraction. Many of the risks can be mitigated thru good seamanship. If you want to remove almost all the risk simply stay tied up at the dock.

robert sailor · 05-04-2016, 06:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

If the boat was built to the 'welded on keel' plans, there is no way, zero possibility, the keel would come off cleanly. The keel should have been brought up into the boat and tied into 3 structural ring frames and floors every 60 cm and then perimeter welded both sides. The boat would rip apart before the keel came off.

My assumption had been that this was a bolted on keel. That has been done on a number of samoas, because it allows much easier trucking of the boat. With the welded keel and hard dodger the boat is too tall to go under many highway bridges. So, quite a number have had bolt on keels to allow keel removal for trucking.

If it was bolted on, the bolts had seen a lot of miles and might well have sheared on reef impact. If it was a welded on keel, the shipyard f&*ked up big time.

The boat 'should have had' 3 'water tight bulkheads (per the plans). Behind the anchor locker and behind the sail locker and in front of the rudder post. But as I have mentioned elsewhere, many (most ?) watertight bulkheads are more water resistant than gas tight, and often watertight doors and air vets/dorades are not closed (especially in the tropics). My guess has been that they the hit the reef, sheared the bolts, and flipped instantly and the bulkheads did not come into it.

and the crew has low survival possibilities no matter what they do in that situation - pounded into razor sharp coral, or traped under the boat by tether.

Has it been established that it hit the reef while sailing or simply ended up there. The reason I ask is that we just did that passage a few weeks ago also from Colon and there are no reefs on the rumb line. Closest is 9 miles or so.

**estarzinger** · 05-04-2016, 07:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Has it been established that it hit the reef while sailing or simply ended up there. The reason I ask is that we just did that passage a few weeks ago also from Colon and there are no reefs on the rumb line. Closest is 9 miles or so.

I dont believe much has been 'established' yet.

I just doubt this boat would float 9 miles upside down with the keel off, and so believe it likely that it hit the reef.

There is a theory that the couple went MOB sometime before, and the boat hit the reef unmanned. I doubt that theory can ever be proven one way or the other.

robert sailor · 05-04-2016, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I dont believe much has been 'established' yet.

I just doubt this boat would float 9 miles upside down with the keel off, and so believe it likely that it hit the reef.

There is a theory that the couple went MOB sometime before, and the boat hit the reef unmanned. I doubt that theory can ever be proven one way or the other.

Mmmmm! We probably have all the info we are going to get as Colombia is unlikely to put any further resources towards this. Another mystery of the sea.

**estarzinger** · 05-04-2016, 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Mmmmm! We probably have all the info we are going to get as Colombia is unlikely to put any further resources towards this. Another mystery of the sea.

I have been hoping the Dutch authorities will investigate. But have not heard they will. A half dozen good high rez photos of the boat and a quick examination of the reef would answer quite a number of questions.

**hpeer** · 05-04-2016, 07:35

Evans,

Thanks for your descriptive post.

Our Murry 33 Brewer also has the long fin keel brought up into the boat and welded into the floors.

The Pape is different, more of a perimeter weld but also supports dissapearing down into the keel, so I think it's more than a simple perimeter weld. The way the rest of the boat is constructed I would seriously doubt such.

If you look closely at the photo of the up turned hull you can almost talk yourself into seeing a keel stub, maybe a flat plate. That would support your bolt theory.

robert sailor · 05-04-2016, 08:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I have been hoping the Dutch authorities will investigate. But have not heard they will. A half dozen good high rez photos of the boat and a quick examination of the reef would answer quite a number of questions.

Good points.

Kita · 05-04-2016, 08:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by estarzinger

I dont believe much has been 'established' yet.

I just doubt this boat would float 9 miles upside down with the keel off, and so believe it likely that it hit the reef.

There is a theory that the couple went MOB sometime before, and the boat hit the reef unmanned. I doubt that theory can ever be proven one way or the other.

First off let me say my condolences to family and friends this is indeed a sad story. Now let me add something to the conversation, I don't believe for a second that this experienced couple sailed that boat onto a reef not for a second! My reasons are this ,,in that photo the rudder looks perfect, if the boat has sailed or motor onto a reef hard enough to knock the keel off the rudder would have some damage as well because then the Keel is gone and then the rudder would strike the reef so there would be some visible damage there. In my humble opinion a bolt on heel with many miles on it and corrosion being a huge Factor I think they simply got in a bit of heavy weather & the Keel bolts broke and the boat rolled without a moment's notice they were in the water. And at that point the poor couple didn't have a chance. Now let's think about this for a moment the boat is upside down and it has watertight compartments at both ends,I don't know these boats but someone said that there are,so a Nine Mile drift would be no big deal for that boat upside down at sea...coming from a guy that bumped a rock & got BOTH rudder & the bottom of boat,as someone said 9 miles to the reef from the rum line,huge boo boo, I just can't see it folks , I think with a little investigation they will find that that keel came off under Sail, hopefully one can investigate the rigging or what's left of it and be able to tell....