Do You Know of Anyone Who Quit Right Away ?

[Bruce Johnson]

I had some friends who sold their house and business and bought a 50 cat. 3 months later they sold the cat and bought an RV. Lost about $50,000 overall. Low sailing skill and poor planning. The dream was so bright it hid the dim reality. Better to do passages and cruising on someone else's boat before taking the plunge.

[shawnkillam]

Holly smoke has this post been through some morphing. I make this post with the expectation of being flamed as it will step on the toes of some of the most self righteous. That being said I have nothing but respect for those who take the time to advise and encourage, using their experience and knowledge to benefit those that lack both.
From the philosophical standpoint the way to avoid turning back is to research everything until you are too old to go. By never risking anything you never have to worry about failing.
I was pretty off put by those posters who decried those with less experience. Those who had followed a dream without the requisite research and then failed. I would much rather be one of those than to not have tried. I also do not care who you are or how much you have researched anything, you too can be broken under the right (or wrong) circumstances.
So what if you bought the boat and then had to sell it for some huge loss. While I was busy researching the perfect boat (sailing other peoples boats, crewing and chartering etc) that nasty little recession came along and my boat fund went from 7 figures to 50 cents. Now I read sailing magazines while sitting in the bathtub and pretend it is a tropical island.
I am working my way back up but I can assure you this time I will not be waiting for perfection. The enemy of good is better.
The only true guarantee in life is that it will end. For me I would rather die in a leaky boat in the middle of the ocean pursuing a dream than choke on the strained spinach in an old folks home.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

... For me I would rather die in a leaky boat in the middle of the ocean pursuing a dream than choke on the strained spinach in an old folks home.

This would truly be a sad world were those the only two alternatives.
Google "False Dichotomy" (false dilemma).

➥ http://lmgtfy.com/?q=false+dilemma

I suspect you're misquoting and (more importantly) misinterpreting Voltaire.

[bljones]

Voltaire- now THAT would be a great name for a wind generator.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by bljones

Voltaire- now THAT would be a great name for a wind generator.

I had to check:
Home - 12-Voltair, 24-Voltair, Accessories

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

. . . From the philosophical standpoint the way to avoid turning back is to research everything until you are too old to go. By never risking anything you never have to worry about failing.
. . . Those who had followed a dream without the requisite research and then failed. I would much rather be one of those than to not have tried.
. . . I am working my way back up but I can assure you this time I will not be waiting for perfection. The enemy of good is better.
. . . The only true guarantee in life is that it will end. For me I would rather die in a leaky boat in the middle of the ocean pursuing a dream than choke on the strained spinach in an old folks home.

There is more than little truth in the thoughts expressed. You can definitely "research/plan" yourself right out of actually doing something. But you can also put yourself and other loved-ones in mortal danger by not doing your research before hand. So there needs to be some balance between the two extremes.
- - In potentially lethal activities like sailing the oceans, knowledge is your life-preserver. However, a life-preserver 10 times too large is not going to save your butt/boat any better than one the proper size. None at all or one too small and you are in a heap of trouble.
- - I think the phrase is "the only two certain things in life are death and taxes" - Did Voltaire say that also?
- - For young folk - who seem to "know" they are immortal - the idea of dying in the "saddle" rather than the "rocking chair" seems to be normal. But as you get closer to the age of the "rocking chair" and stare mortality in the face, dying in the "saddle" seems less appealing.

[shawnkillam]

Actually Osirissail my experience is exactly opposite. At the extremes of age, people who are truly close to dying, almost without exception espouse a philosophy mirrors that of the "red hat society" or of the poem "I would have worn more purple". I interact with these people a lot more than most people which may explain my personal fear of dying in an old folks home. Those who can still think or have moments of lucidity always regret not dying in the saddle.
You are absolutely correct that the reasonable path lies in the middle of those two extremes and endangering yourself or more importantly others because you are too lazy or too stupid to do basic research is reprehensible.
I only take issue with that small but vocal group that because they have been blessed or lucky feel they can cast aspersions on another's dreams or misfortune.
In my own case if I had been less anal about finding the perfect boat and dotting every i and crossing every t I would either be sailing in the south pacific or perhaps been under that same ocean because I had not planned well enough.
Again, I cannot stress enough my admiration for those with experience who encourage and guide those on their way up. It is only those who feel that their view, their politics, their boat or their experiences give them the right to sneer at others, it is those folks that I take issue with.
By the way I was not intentionally or unintentionally quoting Voltaire but I am intrigued, Gord could you please tell me the quote I have come close to.
Thx SK

[beowulfborealis]

Originally Posted by GordMay

This would truly be a sad world were those the only two alternatives.
Google "False Dichotomy" (false dilemma).

I sure get a kick out of reading the CF musings. Wikipedia has a great article on false dichotomy:

False dilemma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But what happens if you choke to death on boiled spinach in the middle of an ocean passage? Does that render the false dichotomy a double truth, or do both arguments get invalidated?

[lawdawg]

It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.
Theodore Roosevelt - Speech at the Sorbonne

Three years ago, at 32, I was told I had a 92% chance of dying in my hospital bed, 2 years of treatment later I have a second chance, live your dreams and be the person God has given you the opportunity to become. My 2 cents.

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by shawnkillam

. . . It is only those who feel that their view, their politics, their boat or their experiences give them the right to sneer at others, it is those folks that I take issue with. . . .
Thx SK

There is no shortage of those types of folks on any forum. Especially since by nature internet forums are "anonymous" entities.
- - But the few authentic and experienced generally do try to encourage others to follow their dreams - but - in a manner that will help turn their dream in a great and enduring experience rather than a short nightmare.
- - Fast cars, fast women, and slow cruising have something in common - you can get fatally burned unless you do your homework and learn to do it right. Life is too short to be wasting it on ill-prepared failures. Prepare, learn and then live the heck out of the experience. If then you find out it is not "your thing" you are still around with all or most of your body parts intact so you can move on to the next adventure.

[imagine2frolic]

lawdawg,

I love your spirit. BEST WISHES in being who you wish to be........i2f

[redmirage]

Fair winds and following seas, What 210 is that?

[GavinC]

I just read through this very interesting thread and something sort of important is that some people were not meant to be at sea. As far as those sea-women that I read about and hear about on here? I have never actually known one personally or met one in real life... I know such a thing exists ( I mean after all a few of them are here on this site!) but it's more of the exception and not the rule. What I saw about converting a "land-raised" woman into a sea woman--- I regard this as a near impossibility. To convert "land-raised" people (regardless of gender) in general to "sea-people is a near impossibility even. The women that I have had onboard were there to look good and that's about it by their own admission even; I could never venture any long distance with them or do anything beyond the "kiddie cruise" in the Bay with them.

Someone looks at a sailing magazine and gets the notion that with little or no experience they are going to just buy a yacht and go for it they are in for a rude awakening. If I pack along the dear woman for a trip, I have to make special allowances and considerations and it's a world of difference from what I do when solo sailing. She is a "land-raised" woman and although she has 10 or so years of sailing experience, she likes the house, the amenities, all that! She will look at an upcoming 3 week sailing trip with me and wonder if this is another "voyage through the depths of hell with Capt. Nemo" and no, it's not because I am some sort of "*******" or anything... it's her basic fears and apprehensions. The seas go over 4 ft. or so and she gets panicked.

Case in point... I am motorsailing in Delaware Bay, crossing over from Cape May, NJ to Lewes, Delaware. I am motorsailing to expedite crossing the busy shipping channel... belt breaks on the diesel, so I cut the motor, ask her to take the helm while I replace the belt. I explain to her just how much of a real problem this is (big mistake) because of being in the shipping channel, causing her to be panick-stricken but I needed to advise her to inform me and be ontop of what was going on with the numerous large container vessels transiting the channel and that I really needed to have the belt replaced in a hurry. OH BOY did she stress over this!

More intense case in point... being caught in a horrific belt of thunderstorms and not being able to sidestep and duck a few of them and having her fall apart at the seams over it all.

More intense case in point than that... sailing in some heavier winds with the main reefed and the storm jib up in a very short period swell. The D-ring popped loose from the dinghy and I had to do a "rescue mission" for the dinghy. During the entire evolution she was falling all to pieces and with tears streaming down her face at one point said to me in a frantic voice, "ARE WE GOING TO DIE OUT HERE?!?" I handled the operation well, retrieved the dinghy and we didn't die not that there was there much of a chance of that but the event traumatized her for much of the rest of the trip! I spent days afterward just kissing her ass and consoling her and all that.


Okay, enough of her (I still love her with all my heart but she is in fact a "land-raised" woman and there is no changing that)... many years ago I was working as a mate on a head boat/party fishing boat that did night bluefishing trips. The 66 gross ton vessel was not small and could handle just about anything. One Friday night it was 10-12ft seas out there and some mean ass winds to go with it. The Capt. and I were standing at the dock but figured we weren't going anywhere and the evening would be a loss. Sure enough though people were climbing out of their cars in the lot with poles, cases of beer, etc. ready to go! Capt. Mike counted heads and sure enough there were 18-20 braves souls ready to go bluefishing!

Now I have gone right through the middle of hurricane David (around 1979,80 or so on a Naval vessel) in one side, through the eye of it and out the other in 130mph winds and 90 ft seas and I found out then at 19 years old or so that I have no suceptability to any motion sickness, so 10ft. seas are no big deal to me as long as the vessel is up to the task. Both the Capt and I knew that most humans on the other hand are NOT up to the task so we warned them of the conditions offshore. These various groups of guys all bitched up a storm and demanded to go because they had all traveled from the city, Newark/New York and wanted to GO! The boat would normally be packed in for a Friday night but a group of 20 is enough to leave the dock with for sure!

We went (explaining to them that fares were non-refundable beforehand because we knew the probable result) and sure enough--- Ever seen a grown man cry? The whole group of these guys were puking their guts up and begging us to turn the boat around before we even made it to the fishing grounds!

Of the several marinas we have been at in New Jersey, the vast majority of the boaters there are "weekend warriors". They barely leave the dock; Some even have little or no actual boating experience! Here we go with "case in point" again...

Case in point... there was a large cabin-cruiser next to us, an older couple and such nice people! What a beautiful boat they had and on the weekends they would come down, dress up in their spiffiest "yachting clothes" and hang out and socialize with the other "yachters" while sipping cocktails about the dock areas, which were equipped with tables, benches, BBQ grills, etc... just all the amenities. They had little actual sea time or boating experience and rarely left the dock but they certainly shopped the finest stores for their spiffy "yachting attire". They thought me to be an absolute wildman because I was underway most of the summer and for weeks at a time. They moved down to Delaware or Maryland someplace; I believe they hired someone to move their boat for them but I bet they wore their spiffy yachting attire when they were inquiring into hiring them!

Bottom line is that some people are simply not cut out for long-range cruising, are lacking experience or are not informed enough beforehand that it's not quite the purely blissful, hassle free existence portrayed in some sailing magazine that is focused on advertising dollars from boat manufacturers, vendors, etc. It's a unique and wonderful experience if you are "well suited" for it (and by this I do not mean the aforementioned fashionable yachting attire) because things break, engines fail, fuel filters clog, sails rip, anchors drag, seas kick up, equipage issues occur, thunderstorms hit, weather gets miserable, living in a confined space is not for everyone, living without some amenties is not for everyone... the list goes on and on. If "land-raised" people find some of these things out "the hard way" it just might freak them out a bit more than if they learned these things through experience and over a period of time. Might be a good idea to make sure you don't get violently ill if the seas exceed 2ft. before buying that $100,000.00 boat to go "sailing the world" with because those sailing magazines will show a couple enjoying a beautiful sunset together snuggling each other on the bow anchored in calm water with a beautiful coastline in the picture loaded with some palm trees and not someone clinging to the wheel for dear life in gale winds and bouncing around while trying to puke into a bucket, terrified because they are not acclimated to such weather and sick from a lack of time on the water to acclimate in that respect either!

[osirissail]

Originally Posted by GavinC

. . . She will look at an upcoming 3 week sailing trip with me and wonder if this is another "voyage through the depths of hell with Capt. Nemo" and no, it's not because I am some sort of "*******" or anything... it's her basic fears and apprehensions. The seas go over 4 ft. or so and she gets panicked. . . .

That's why God made Valium - Give her some of those along with the motion sickness pills and a shot of scotch and she will put on the oil slicker, grab the wheel in a Force 10 and laugh all the way . . .

- - But it is true that some folks are land people and some are sea people. Like other classifications of life-style choices, some people are born to be one way or the other, but a vast majority of people fall into the category of being "raised" to be fearful of near everything or be raised to be bold. Taking your 5 year old to see "Jaws" could almost guarantee a life-long fear of the sea.
- - Still there is a significant number of what I call "gypsy" people in that they are not satisfied remaining in one place forever and need to travel and see what the rest of the world is like. Unless there is a genetic disposition to motion sickness (also why God made "Sturgeon") they take to cruising like ducks to water.
- - But like back in my youth when you could not get a car drivers license without having passed "auto shop" classes, now-a-days anybody and everybody can buy a boat and head out blissfully ignorant of the implications. Luckily, most survive the experience and sell the boat and move on to other things. There are some great bargains on near-new boats to be had from this group as they want to just get rid of the thing. More the better for us who would like a better boat but can't afford totally new.

[capcook]

Originally Posted by GordMay

This would truly be a sad world were those the only two alternatives.
Google "False Dichotomy" (false dilemma).

➥ Let me google that for you

I suspect you're misquoting and (more importantly) misinterpreting Voltaire.

I know Voltaire's point that trying to attain prefection might not be worth it when good is enough, but it is interesting that this thought can be turned around with equal truth... we say around our opertaions that "Good is the enemy of Great" which means if you spend the money on "good" you can't afford the extra effort to reach "Great" results... we see it all the time... you see it all the time too... when you buy that cheaper GPS and are not really happy with it but you have already spent the money on it so you don't want to go buy a great one now...

Cheers