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Old 02-11-2004, 21:47   #1
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CSY Draft

Does anyone know if you can add to the draft of a CSY? There are articles about reducing the draft from 6'6 to 4'11" but is the reverse an option? What is its balance and performance in offshore heavy weather. Thanks.
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Old 03-11-2004, 05:26   #2
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Well, that has been talked about, but never done to my knowledge.

There was a guy in Ft. Lauderdale 4 years ago that came to the boat yard with the intention of cutting his keel from 6'6" to 4'11".

Another guy was willing to buy the discarded piece of keel and somehow glue / bolt it on...One way of the other.

There has been plenty of talk on the sailing performance between the deep draft and the shallow draft CSY 44s over at Topica.com

Go in there, sign up for the CSY list, then do a research in the archives, or post a question to the group.
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Old 03-11-2004, 06:18   #3
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I would not think that you could add draft to a boat like the CSY's without hurting performance and without creating long range structural issues. If I remember correctly the CSY's have encapulated ballast keels and that the shoal keel boats had longer keels with more ballast in them making them heavier than the deep keel versions. Adding a deeper ballasted fin would increase the stability of the boat, but would come at the price of less performance and less carrying capacity. The deeper keel would add drag to an already high drag boat meaning that you would need to carry more sail area and this is a real liability either at the light end of the wind range and at the heavy end of the wind range. At the light end it would mean more motoring time and at the heavy end of the wind range it means carrying more sail to beat off a leeshore or even to close reach in a chop.

Structurally, if my memory if correct and the CSY is indeed an encapsulated keel boat, then there is no really good way to attach additional ballast. Probably the best way would to be to drill up through the encasulation envelope and the existing ballast, reinforce the bilge and then thru bolt the keel on. The downside of this, besides cost, is that, in time, water will be penetrate the encapsulation envelope and will cause a delamination between the existing ballast and the encapsulation envelope which is a key component in the strength of the keel.

If I am mistaken about CSY's having encasulated keels then I suppose you could unbolt and remove the existing keel and then bolt on a new deeper keel. You would want a naval architect to design that change for you as it will probably require some remedial structural work and a very careful modeling of the new keel shape to maintain a proper balance under sail.

In either case I cannot imagine that the cost of of adding a deeper keel would be worth doing. These are not high pirced or performance boats. It is unlikely that the deeper keep would add resale value to the boat as most people who wanted better performance would have simply bought a deeper keel version or else a higher performance boat. Depending on how the deeper keel was done, it would add some performance and would be more stable. My best advise is to simply buy a deep keel version. If you already own a shoal draft version, even paying a commission to sell your existing boat in order to buy a deeper keel version is probably less expensove than doing the keel mods.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Old 03-11-2004, 06:34   #4
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Yes, ya are right Mr. Jeff.

The keels is encapsulated concrete.

The shallow draft boats had 2000 lbs of ballast added to make up for the lesser draft.

The deep keel version however had a line molded into the keel all the way around, about a foot and a half from the bottom...The line was a guide for cutting the keel if so desired.

In other words, the ballast was higher up so one could cut the bottom of the keel off without causing further problems..

(Some people call this castration of an ocean going sail boat)

Some folks tought ya could take one of the keel pieces that was cut and add to another shallow draft CSY.
The shape would probably be in the ball park, but not sure how secure the piece would be....(Sacrificial Keel...Ya run aground, then to get loose ya ditch the keel and keep sailing..Hmm)

Again, this has been discussed in details and there should be a large amount of information in the CSY archives on the subject.
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Old 03-11-2004, 17:13   #5
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The line that you mentioned at the depth of the shoal keel was not so that the keel could be cut off, but was a remnant of the manufacturing process. There are two ways to do a deep keel and shoal keel model with an encapsulated keel. The first way uses two completely different keel molds and these are change out and faired every time a manufacturer goes from a deep keel to a shoal keel. That is comparatively expensive process. The second way is to use a single keel mold that is part of the hull mold and to have a false bottom which is placed in the keel cavity when a shoal keel version if made. The joint is then faired roughly between the false bottom and the walls of the keel cavity in the mold. Based on what you are describing, CSY used the second method and that telltale line was where fairing material was not removed. Cutting off a deep draft version of an encapsulated keel boat is not a very good idea as it is nearly imposible to re-establish the kind of bond that is necessary.

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Old 03-11-2004, 19:22   #6
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Roger that Mr. Jeff.

I do hovever stand by my statement about the line around the keel:

Cut Here..................

I have been around these CSY boats for 6 years now and tried to soak up as much info as I could about 'em.

One of the sources I have studied in detail is the "Official" CSY book:

It is called

"CSY guide to bying a yacht." By John R. Van Ost

A 126 page booklet detailing the construction and background of these fine CSY yachts.

It gives much more info than the typical "yacht" buyers wants to know, ever.

But for us owners, it explains some of he weird stuff that the CSY people cooked up 20+ years ago..The heavy construction and other stuff...(It made sense at the time, and in many cases, still does.)

At any rate, on page 24 of this fine book there is a drawing of the hull, keel and the laminate layers and thickness and all that.

Towards the bottom there is an arrow and text pointing to a certain line on the keel..The blurb says:

CUT HERE TO CONVERT TO SHALLOW DRAFT.

Lead above, concrete below.
It has been done several times..One could perhaps say with mixed results as the stability decreases and the lee-way increases but with that being said, I have never met an un-happy CSY owner, shallow or deep draft.
They keep sailing around in style and comfort, leeway or not.
(Perhaps not fast in light winds, but if ya are in a hurry, get a gas guzzling powerboat and ya be there before the sun is up)

It is almost like a cult following with the CSY boats:
I guess we just feel good about being on a heavy boat in various conditons...Heavy is not just weight but sturdiness of construction and quality back at the factory. Yes, there is some crude stuff, as in rough, but not light-weight or cheap.

I can also point ya to the various CSY pages where people with more knowledge than me hang out, and ya can have the above verifed right there....From the horse's mouth's..Some of these guys bought the boats brand new and know all about 'em, then some, especially after 25 years of sailing and ownership.

So, uh, hate to say ya are wrong, but in this case ya are wrong.
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Old 04-11-2004, 04:40   #7
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Who would have thunk it! Live and learn...... 8^)

Jeff
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Old 04-11-2004, 05:58   #8
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That CSY book tells us...

...more than we might realize. I remember reading that at the time CSY's were in production, the business plan being essentially a two-tiered program: enjoy an initial base business by producing in part charter boats that can be put into the field, with a second tier of business evolving as satisfied charter customers wanted their own CSY. Looking at that booklet, some questions quickly rose to the surface:
1. Is a CSY yacht going to offer the kind of sailing pleasure that the charter customer typically seeks? Sure, the basic structures will last like a tank, but will it generate repeat business and create an increasing demand for CSY boats in other fleets?
2. Charter boats must, by necessity, be cost-effective revenue producers. Looking at all that laminate, keel whacking, and heavy duty systems, I wondered how the dollars-and-cents side of the equation worked out.
3. Would familiarity (with CSY yachts, out in the charter fleets) breed contempt (back home in the brokerage offices, where new sales are booked)?

The success of CSY boats was relatively short-lived in the marketplace. It always seemed to me that little booklet illustrated some of the reasons why.

Jack
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Old 04-11-2004, 06:23   #9
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Well, Mr. Jeff, the whole idea of cutting half of the keel off goes sort of, against the grain of "normal" people.

It was the CSY marketing people that was pushing for it.
The designer Peter Schmitt was against the idea, but a fair number of customers from Florida / Bahamas expressed strong interest for a shallow draft version.

My CSY 33 is the "deep" draft and I have not sailed a shoal draft vesrion of the 33, can't compare directly there.

I did however sail a 44 Pilot House shoal draft, to the Bahamas and back on a 4 day shake down cruise with new owners.
As far as I could tell, the boat sailed just fine, she was stable and tracked well, and forgiving when we carried full sails and the wind picked up from about 18 to 25 on the beam and we did not tuck in a reef in time....She heeled a bit more, but kept going in style and comfort with no drama or panic....I was failry impressed as I had though the shoal draft one be a pig in the ocean due to lack of stability and weight "down there".

There has been some infighting in the CSY family about the shoal and the deep draft...There has been name calling and mud slinging..Such as the shoal draft ones are not "real" boats and the owners are idiots for buying them, etc....Yawn, whatever.

Yeah, ya get slightly less performance probably, but these boat are big 'n heavy and not "performance boats" anyway.
They are made for carrying lots of stuff and huge amounts of fuel and water from ancorage to anchorage in the tropics , not to compete around the buoys.

That being said, they have won some races, but uh, not many..
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Old 25-10-2009, 17:29   #10
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DRAFT? If you have gotten this far and do not understand the questions posed, I would suggest giving some thought to Dag Hansen's comments.
Yes, I am a CSY man. Beyond this, I believe, more than any of us...ANY, that Dag has found within his manners, to explain the differences in most questions, a bit better than our hard headed members/and I include myself here. The "Important thing is" for all of us to speak truth, read clearly and continue to question/not ram it up some one's a-- if we do not agree. "Most" of us, like Dag, just love 'his' boat and much more than that, has shown commitment to honesty beyond fault.
ron
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Old 25-10-2009, 17:42   #11
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Uh, thanks Ron and welcome aboard...
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Old 25-10-2009, 18:26   #12
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Mine is 44 WO deep draft version ,6,6 ft, still i dont understand why convert to the shoal draft version, the deep draft is fine in blue water sailing , and i dont know how to back to deep draft version, is a mess , making holes in the lead and trough bolted the rest?? better sell the boat and find a deep draft one.
Cheers.
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