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Old 01-06-2014, 05:01   #331
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Here is a similar one form one of my trips. The sun has just come up and the camera is about as well focused as I am at this point.

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Old 01-06-2014, 05:53   #332
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Here is a similar one form one of my trips. The sun has just come up and the camera is about as well focused as I am at this point.

Bah! This is why I use paper charts and a compass!
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Old 01-06-2014, 15:03   #333
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Crossing blue water is something we endure to get to a neat place, not something we seek. To us, coastal cruising and nights at anchor or in a slip is much more fun.

Perhaps this is why, for us, the current crop of lightweight fiberglass pleasure yachts is absolutely great.

Am I the only person who feels this way?
you aren't the only one that feels this way
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Old 06-06-2014, 03:52   #334
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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... So when we lose a couple or three of one brand in offshore sailing it represents a much higher % that you are leading people to believe. There are lots of want to be offshore sailors on this site and there is little good in suggesting these boats are the perfect choice.
Talking about numbers, only on the ARC and other Rallies about 500 cross the Atlantic, on on direction and then on the other and that will make a 1000 crossings. Most of those boats are cheap mass production boats. I believe we can say for sure that more cross the Atlantic out of the ARC and other rallies than on those rallies so the number, along a year, that cross the Atlantic on both directions should be of some thousands of boats, most of them mass produced boats.

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I fly as well and you can buy production aircraft and aerobatic aircraft. This does not stop you from doing aerobatics in production aircraft but you better limit your choice and be damn good at what your doing if you fly aerobatics in a standard aircraft.
Aerobatic aircraft are built to standards much higher and are terribly forgiving of screw ups when it comes to overall build quality and strength compared to a standard aircraft.
Thats the way I view modern built down to a price production sailboats. Great boats, great value, produced to satisfy 99% of the market place that likes to sail in the Med/Mexico or Caribbean but to those 1%ers taking them offshore be easy on them and don't take them into conditions they were never designed for in the beginning.
I agree with you regarding that example of aerobatic airplanes versus normal planes, maybe because I was a flyer too. When I was 16/18 I used to do aerobatics on normal planes and I knew that absolute control was needed because the airplane would lose its wings at 3 or 4G while aerobatic plane could take easily the double of that.

Regarding that I would like to point out that contrary than what most think cruiser racers have a bigger safety threshold than mass production main market cruisers simply because (like the aerobatic planes) they were designed to be sailed in more stressed conditions: raced ant that implies not only a bigger stability as well as a stronger hull able to take all the extra loads.

Sure there are some very expensive production cruisers that not being designed to race are designed with a bigger safety threshold, being designed as offshore/voyage boats, but they are not only heavier, slower as much more expensive. If the price of one of those is out of question than a boat like a Salona, A Comet or a Dehler can be a more seaworthy and better offshore option than a mass market Benetau/jeanneau/Bavaria. They will cost not much more than a mass market production boat and are more strong and seaworthy.

Off course, they still have more maintenance than the more expensive type of boats I was talking about, I mean Oyster, Halberg-Rassy and all the others, but if they are well maintained they can be a very interesting option as an offshore boat, a cheaper one and a boat that will be faster and more fun to sail at the cost at a bigger sailing experience to handle it.

There is also a difference of weight to consider, so to have the same stability of one of the above mentioned offshore/voyage boats, the performance boat should be bigger (to have a more closer weight). It will still be a cheaper boat,now even faster (bigger) and with a larger interior.

What I am saying is already a fact in the head of many sailors that look at older cruiser racers as an ideal cruising boat but curiously the same sailors think that modern cruiser-racers are not so strong

They are and what I am saying has been already mentioned by test sailors from several major reputable sailing magazines. I remember to read articles about that (some years ago) in Yacht.de and Giornalle della Vela.

The main problem remains that some of those boats have a rigging designed to be used by a racing crew while the cruiser sails solo, but that is changing fast and many modern ones have rigging adapted also to solo sailing.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:10   #335
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

OK so Beneteau loses 3 boats in the last couple of months, all racer/cruisers. No one knows why one broke in two or another lost its keel but I would suggest that these boats are not built to standards far exceeding normal cruising boats, in fact I would suggest just the opposite. Yes they are good boats, they sail well and in the right weather and the right hands they can be safely sailed across the Atlantic but they are built down to a price not up to a standard so when they are sailed offshore you should do so with prudence (which you would with any boat) and don't convince yourself that because they are racer/cruisers it some how means they can be sailed harder/faster and remain just as safe.
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Old 06-06-2014, 04:16   #336
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

The other point to consider which was brought up by Dave (Goboatingnow) is that these racer/cruisers were designed to a certain level of cycles and that after they have been raced hard that in as little as 5 years for a boat heavily used (as may have been the case with the loss of the keel) the cycles will have been met and they would no longer be considered safe.
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Old 06-06-2014, 05:19   #337
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

The vast majority of sailboats are never asked to make an extended offshore voyage, which is reflected in their design. Average production designs target the mass market of weekend sailors -- not the those planning to round the horn.

The vessel I would be most comfortable in while caught in force 10 winds and heavy seas is not the same boat I would be most comfortable in while at anchor in a quiet lagoon.

Also, while different eras, and the evolution of racing handicapping (CCA/IOR/IMS/IRC/PHRF), have produced different dominate sailboats designs, I believe the locale of a vessel's design and manufacture can't be ignored. New Zealand comes to mind.
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Old 06-06-2014, 11:18   #338
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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...cruiser racers have a bigger safety threshold than mass production main market cruisers simply because (like the aerobatic planes) they were designed to be sailed in more stressed conditions: raced ant that implies not only a bigger stability as well as a stronger hull able to take all the extra loads...
Hogwash!

Racers are built LIGHTER to be more competitive. And often don't include the systems necessary to cruising.
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Old 08-06-2014, 13:17   #339
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Hogwash!

Racers are built LIGHTER to be more competitive. And often don't include the systems necessary to cruising.
Off course, I was not talking about racers but about offshore cruiser racers but even in what regards offshore racers and strength (compared with mass production cruisers) you re wrong. Take for instance a Ker 40, all carbon with an huge sail area, able to go at over 20K on huge waves, falling from the top of them and crashing around at speed. The boat features a huge stability a very big B/D ratio and the forces that all that stability, speed and wild sailing induces on the hull are huge. The boat has to be able to resist to all that and therefore has to be very strong.

I was not talking about racers and made very clear that I was talking about cruiser racers. A Ker 40, or any other big crew racer is a nervous boat to be sailed solo or cruised, at least by me, but in what regards strength and stability, if you sail (cruise) that boat at 9/12K, the boat is sailing with a huge safety margin, having being built and designed to sustain much more violent efforts.

I was talking about cruiser racers and I was not manifesting a lonely opinion but one that is widely shared by the ones that know something about modern production boats. I was talking about this type of boasts, able to do well at top level but also perfectly equipped for cruising:







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Old 08-06-2014, 17:04   #340
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

Polux, Cruiser/Racer is a marketing term. It has no real world relevance. Same as calling a boat a "Blue Water Cruiser." The only reason they call it a Cruiser/Racer is because no one would buy it if they called it "A Bastard Child of Two Design Philosophies with Some of the Good Points and all the Bad Points of Each."

I mean, think about it, it's built too lightly to be used extensively as an offshore cruiser and not lightly enough to be a truly competitive racer.

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Old 09-06-2014, 00:23   #341
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Polux, Cruiser/Racer is a marketing term. It has no real world relevance. Same as calling a boat a "Blue Water Cruiser." The only reason they call it a Cruiser/Racer is because no one would buy it if they called it "A Bastard Child of Two Design Philosophies with Some of the Good Points and all the Bad Points of Each."

I mean, think about it, it's built too lightly to be used extensively as an offshore cruiser and not lightly enough to be a truly competitive racer.

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Old 09-06-2014, 00:37   #342
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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OK so Beneteau loses 3 boats in the last couple of months, all racer/cruisers. No one knows why one broke in two or another lost its keel but I would suggest that these boats are not built to standards far exceeding normal cruising boats, in fact I would suggest just the opposite. Yes they are good boats, they sail well and in the right weather and the right hands they can be safely sailed across the Atlantic but they are built down to a price not up to a standard so when they are sailed offshore you should do so with prudence (which you would with any boat) and don't convince yourself that because they are racer/cruisers it some how means they can be sailed harder/faster and remain just as safe.
All racer cruisers? It seems to me that you call racer cruisers improperly to Beneteau Oceanis. The cruiser racers from Beneteau are the Beneteau First. I only know of problems with one. And yes, the First are stronger than the Oceanis, the hull is more rigid (it flex less) and it is stronger, with the bulkheads glassed to the hull. That is one of the reasons why they are more expensive even if with a not so good interior.
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Old 09-06-2014, 00:42   #343
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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The other point to consider which was brought up by Dave (Goboatingnow) is that these racer/cruisers were designed to a certain level of cycles and that after they have been raced hard that in as little as 5 years for a boat heavily used (as may have been the case with the loss of the keel) the cycles will have been met and they would no longer be considered safe.
There are Open 60´s, built 25 years ago, designed to circumnavigate and that have circumnavigate 4 or 5 times (racing), crossed oceans a huge number of times ( many times racing) have more millage then any cruising boat around and are still racing, circumnavigating and crossing oceans on 2th rate races. A race have even been created expressly for them (the Velux 5 Oceans).

That seems a bit contradictory with what you say
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Old 09-06-2014, 01:07   #344
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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Polux, Cruiser/Racer is a marketing term. It has no real world relevance. Same as calling a boat a "Blue Water Cruiser." The only reason they call it a Cruiser/Racer is because no one would buy it if they called it "A Bastard Child of Two Design Philosophies with Some of the Good Points and all the Bad Points of Each."

I mean, think about it, it's built too lightly to be used extensively as an offshore cruiser and not lightly enough to be a truly competitive racer.

.
On the US that is true and they call cruiser/racer to something...and they also race with something.

On Europe a cruiser-racer is what the name means, a boat designed to cruise and to race. Some are designed more to race and cruise less others designed to cruise more time and race occasionally. You can distinguish a cruiser racer from a main market cruiser not only because it is faster but also because it has maximized all potential to trim correctly the sails.

Some brands in Europe make both types of boats on two different lines, for instance, Beneteau with the Oceanis and First line, ELan with the Performance and Cruising line or Dufour with Grand Large line and Performance Line. Others only make cruiser-racers, like Salona or Arcona, or just main market cruisers like Jeanneau (they had the Sun Fast line that once were cruiser-racers but today are practically racers) or Hanse. Hanse bought Dehler and in fact they are the cruiser-racers made by Hanse.

On all these brands there is something in common: The cruiser-racers are more expensive than the main market cruiser and I believe stronger.

Boats that are designed to be pushed on these conditions have to be stronger then boats designed to cruise. One thing is sailing on these conditions carefully other thing is pushing the boat on these conditions. The efforts on the hull are very different:

2013 Rolex Sydney Hobart Race Final Wrap Video on Vimeo

Nobody in an Beneteau Oceanis would think about pushing this way a boat on these conditions: The boat is just not designed for that, would flex enormously and could even break.

By the way, several mass production cruiser racers made very well on this race, some winning it on past years on terrible conditions, I mean, Beneteau First, Salona and so on.
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Old 09-06-2014, 03:21   #345
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Re: Can't Wrap my Mind Around this "Bluewater" Thing!

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What I was trying to get across , is there are lots of boats doing difficult passages, Hell Northern Europe and the western approaches is at 50 N the North Sea is-56 N. These are tough tough waters and these " types" of boats are to be found all that area
Indeed. The bit about circumnavigating is a red herring. A tradewinds circumnavigation is far from the ultimate test of the strength and stability of a boat. On the contrary, this is pretty easy duty from the point of view of strength and stability.

The toughest duty cruising sailboats are likely to do is a W to E transat, or any kind of sailing offshore in higher latitudes -- Northern Europe, New Zealand, Alaska. The North Sea is really about as tough as it gets short of the Southern Ocean, and Dave is correct -- thousands of production boats do it every year without incident.

It's also important to note that not all production boats are the same -- far from it. Not even from the same maker. Some are as strong as anything; others are pretty shoddy, with bulkheads coming untabbed, glassed-in chainplates, etc., etc.

I do not agree with the "aerobatic aircraft"/"ordinary aircraft" comparison. Aerobatic aircraft are specifically built for specific conditions; expensive hand-built boats, on the other hand, are sold more than anything for their fitouts. What is underneath that fitout varies a lot. Witness the structural problems of certain Hallberg-Rassys (there was a big lawsuit about it IIRC). When I was trying to buy an Oyster, I found a some of them with horrendously underspecified rigs. On the other hand, some stick-built Jeanneaus from the 90's I've seen, although cheap and mass produced, have massive heavy stringers, and very good underwater shapes. Your chances of getting more strength and more seaworthiness are probably greater with an expensive hand-built boat, but it's no guaranty, because the great majority of sailboats are used for undemanding coastal sailing in good weather, and there is little reason for makers of any kind of boat, cheap or expensive, to build for those of us who are foolish enough to sail in really tough conditions.

Written to you from above 60N!
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