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Old 10-08-2013, 12:45   #31
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Hiya Skip! Airplanes are not boats in a sense that they must undergo tests and parts replacement at scheduled intervals; (US) FAA regulations requires it. I'm sure you know that, as you're a pilot. Boats do not have such a requirement; that's the weakest link. Planes can fly for decades, as long as their "upgrades" are up to date/logged. Technicians who service airplanes are FAA certified. When you buy a used boat, it is like a guessing game at what you'll find; hence my 5-year old boat purchase suggestion, to minimize the cost of repairs.

When invited on a friend's boat, I look at the general picture before setting sail; paint condition, deck, lights, cleanliness. Once aboard, I look at the engine (oil all over - not a good sign), electrical wiring, a few finger taps on the hull for echo sound, look at the condition of the sails, a look at the bilge, condition of winches, lines and plates cracks/repairs, a quick test to determine the neutral point on the wheel (if not labeled), to name a few...and I'm not even a surveyor!

This is how I conduct myself whether it is a chartered boat for my vacation, sailing on a friend's boat or flying someone's float plane. I do this for the fun of it, as I enjoy being on the water and getting the most out of my professional training. Whatever I do, must have a purpose.

Most SCUBA divers, after a dive, will talk about seeing this or that during their dive. I look for a specific species of fish or a type of coral that only exists in that area; everything must have a purpose, or I won't do it!

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Old 10-08-2013, 13:17   #32
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

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Originally Posted by Mike OReilly View Post
[*]If a boat ad spends a lot of time on extraneous "upgrades" like chartplotters, sound systems, BBQs, etc then I immediately become suspicious. If they emphasis crap like new TVs then I run.
I was going to say this, but you beat me to it (amongst your other excellent advice).

Takes a while to learn how Yacht Brokers "work" , if you put some effort in beforehand then likely won't end up paying too much for the learning curve (in wasted trips - albeit every boat seen teaches something, especially those in poor condition....the boats that bite yer on the bum are those which only look ok!).
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Old 10-08-2013, 14:08   #33
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Just gotta say I'm thankful for the stories and advice shared here. We have been looking to buy for almost a year and have learned a lot in that time about brokers and not as advertised boats! Because of stories like the OPs and advice here on CF we have been looking only close to home, decided to be patient, and we are getting a better feel for the market and valuations. As we have looked at different boats and gotten more experience sailing our boat share this summer we have adjusted what we need/ want and I am more confident that when we do buy we will make a better decision. But the false advertising totally burns my butt! Too many stories like the OPs out there...
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Old 10-08-2013, 14:52   #34
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

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Originally Posted by terminalcitygrl View Post
Just gotta say I'm thankful for the stories and advice shared here. We have been looking to buy for almost a year and have learned a lot in that time about brokers and not as advertised boats! Because of stories like the OPs and advice here on CF we have been looking only close to home, decided to be patient, and we are getting a better feel for the market and valuations. As we have looked at different boats and gotten more experience sailing our boat share this summer we have adjusted what we need/ want and I am more confident that when we do buy we will make a better decision. But the false advertising totally burns my butt! Too many stories like the OPs out there...
Agreed, there are too many stories like the OP's out there. I think too many people blame their lack of knowledge and lack of due diligence on others. Take the time to educate yourself and take responsibility for your own actions. If you don't qualify the broker, the boat, the surveyor then accept that consequence. Be the Master of your own Disaster.

You can go blindly in to buying a house , a car or choosing a doctor and when it does not work out you can blame them or ..............
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Old 10-08-2013, 15:38   #35
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Great advice, boatpoker! You, are the Master of your own Destiny. Unless you educate yourself, you will find yourself being taken advantage of. Another big advantage of learning the ins and outs of boats is you are able to converse with knowledgeable folks about your prospective purchase. That means you know the questions to ask a broker, owner, professional marine surveyor and mark yourself as one who expects straight answers. I've talked with many prospective boat buyers in clubs, restaurants and bars who come across as complete idiots by the questions they ask and the answers they give to probing questions.
When we bought our last boat, the owner said he was done and wouldn't answer any more questions unless he had an indication (financial) that I was really a serious buyer. This was after about a day and a half of interrogation, poking around through his boat with a knowledgeable friend of mine but before sea trial, survey and pulling the boat.
We went to his bank, opened an escrow account and deposited $10K and he felt more comfortable then.
I'm sure brokers will tell you there are a lot of tire kickers out there who have no intention of buying but will spend all their spare time burning up hours that the broker can spend more profitably but that is part of being in the selling game.
Deceit, dishonesty and misrepresentation should not be part of their stock and trade IMO. The sooner brokers realize that, the better for all concerned. Phil
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Old 10-08-2013, 16:52   #36
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Great advise all around. I am curious how you would deal with the following scenario: You have your heart set to a very specific make of a boat. It is fairly rare and doesn't come up often yet you have seen three on YachtWorld that have been for sale for over a year. The boats are less than 10 years old and are listed in the 400k to 500k range. The budget is maybe 300k or so - in other words you need the seller to be REALLY flexible/desperate.
Do you fly all over the continent, look at the boats and then find out the sellers have no intention of dropping the price? Do you make a sight unseen offer subject to personal inspection plus all the regular stuff (survey.see trial etc)? Problem here is that most brokers don't take you serious.
Even if you could find a local CF'er to have a look-see, you are still in a catch 22 situation where there is no point to spend 3 or 4 k for travel just to be told that the seller doesn't care that the boat has not sold in a year and isn't willing to talk price.
What would you do ?
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Old 10-08-2013, 17:14   #37
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Hi JD1! You bring up several valid questions. If the boat has been on the hard, for a year or more, I'd walk away from it. You are in BC, but the boat is in Zanzibar...too costly to bring it to BC; let go of it. Negotiating a lower price between yourself and the owner...if it passes inspection and a few sailing test runs...list the items that will need repair/replacement as your bargaining chip, in floating a price 25% lower than the asking price, but be ready to settle for only a 10% price reduction. Never fall in love with a boat that you're thinking of buying. If you do, your pocket book loses. Compare boat's length/displacement vs availability of space/weight; aim at getting the most space, while everything else is being equal. If the owner doesn't want to come to terms with your offer, be prepared to walk away. I would not rely on anyone's word in assessing the condition and the seaworthiness of the boat; you must be there in person, and be very knowledgeable about boats or you'll be taken for a ride. Good luck!

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Old 10-08-2013, 17:33   #38
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Great advise all around. I am curious how you would deal with the following scenario: You have your heart set to a very specific make of a boat. It is fairly rare and doesn't come up often yet you have seen three on YachtWorld that have been for sale for over a year. The boats are less than 10 years old and are listed in the 400k to 500k range. The budget is maybe 300k or so - in other words you need the seller to be REALLY flexible/desperate.
Do you fly all over the continent, look at the boats and then find out the sellers have no intention of dropping the price? Do you make a sight unseen offer subject to personal inspection plus all the regular stuff (survey.see trial etc)? Problem here is that most brokers don't take you serious.
Even if you could find a local CF'er to have a look-see, you are still in a catch 22 situation where there is no point to spend 3 or 4 k for travel just to be told that the seller doesn't care that the boat has not sold in a year and isn't willing to talk price.
What would you do ?
Newer boats, say less than 7 years old are selling well now. Boats over about 12 years old will sit for a very long time. The majority of boats over 20 years old will end up in the landfill. The boats between 8 amd 11 years old will sit till the owners come to grips that they are going to loose their a$$ on them.
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Old 10-08-2013, 17:51   #39
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

A difference of over 100k between what you can spend and the low end of the models on the market is pretty darned big. Maybe you could find someone willing to sell to you at your price point but its probably unlikely. That is a really, really big difference.

If I were in your situation, I would either A: save more money and go looking when i can afford the boat I want or B: Find another model that would work.
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Old 10-08-2013, 17:58   #40
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

All this fuss over a typo!

Obviously the broker meant "turkey" not turnkey!






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Old 10-08-2013, 18:08   #41
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Hi JD - I would talk to the brokers and ask some of the key questions Mike Reilly laid out earlier in this thread. Try to get a very good sense of the boats and ideally what the story is with the seller. I have had brokers indicate a range/ price that a seller might be willing to consider. Try to find your own broker who can help you appear a more serious buyer perhaps and provide you with sold boat data for the boat you are thinking of making an offer on. But at the end of the day offer what you are comfortable with and be prepared to walk away - loads of boats are priced by loving owners and borderline brokers for far more than they are worth to a buyer.

So if after the broker convos there is a boat or two you are still interested in, ask here to find a good surveyor local to the boats 'hood, hire him to do a quick look and take lots of current pics to send you. If the photos and the surveyors quick assessment are promising and you feel comfortable doing so, make an offer subject to your inspection, survey and sea trial. Then book a flight or whatever to go see it yourself. I think this would be the most cost effective way to proceed in a case such as you describe. I think Capt Phil and others make good points though about budgeting for costs of relocating the boat and such... We've decided to only look at boats within a few hours drive of our location and while initially there were a few specific and more rare boats that caught our attention, we are learning and rethinking and looking at lots of different boats that could work. Every boat is a compromise, or so I hear around these parts! Good luck.
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:13   #42
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jd1 View Post
Problem here is that most brokers don't take you serious.
Even if you could find a local CF'er to have a look-see, you are still in a catch 22 situation where there is no point to spend 3 or 4 k for travel just to be told that the seller doesn't care that the boat has not sold in a year and isn't willing to talk price.
What would you do ?
I wouldn't travel , but nonetheless I think need to put some effort in.

Could simply ring up the broker and say you are interested, and are aware it has been listed for a year or so - and bluntly ask how much movement is in the price (and give a reason for your ballpark thinking - based on other competing models). Could even throw in for a quick sale, cash if possible (i.e. no fannying around with a lender who may argue over the value). If the Broker says no movement, then scratch 'em off the list (and pity the poor vendor who has a Broker who won't even talk to them!).

Alternatively get own Broker to do your talking (personally i hate the idea, but it appears that some listing Brokers will only talk to other brokers. Bizarre - but if that is the case then have to deal with how the world is).

Failing that, get your lawyer (or PA!) to get in contact with the Broker on your behalf......."My boss will be in the area and has asked me to call........here are some questions".

Or track the owners down and deal direct (self or lawyer).
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:13   #43
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

Just another quick point... While I think mimsy is right that $100k is a big difference in price, I have seen a good number of boats significantly discounted over the past year as I peruse Yachtworld pretty regular. I've seen $50k and $75k price reductions on boats in the $300-$400k price range, $25k in $75-100k price range, "all offers considered" caveats, etc... So you never know, unless you ask.
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Old 10-08-2013, 18:41   #44
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

I currently have my commercial vessel on the market. As a matter of course, I had an independent survey done, at my expense, and freely avail it to any prospective purchasers.

It was an interesting exercise as there were a few minor issues found. My survey allowed me to attend to these issues prior to a pre-purchase survey by another surveyor. I have confidence in the condition of my boat. I consider the survey cost as a "cost of sale" expense, a bit like broker fees.
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Old 10-08-2013, 21:06   #45
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Re: Brokers and False Advertising

I recommend that you find a broker that you like AND STICK WITH THEM. Folks that look at lots of boats with different brokers, just spend everyone's time. Keep in mind, if you are loyal to your good broker, they will go to the mat for you. The folks that go to multiple brokers, especially in the same locations usually get what they deserve. Once you have spent time with a broker it is then very difficult to have another broker contact them over the same boat on your behalf. Be loyal to your broker and you'll be amazed at what can happen.
As far as pricing goes, part of my licensing requirement is not to "speculate on what the seller might take" and we can only quote the listed price. We may, in some cases, describe the sellers circumstances. I always tell folks to do some research and make an offer with a refundable deposit; that is a legitimate Purchase Agreement. Everything else is just conversation. A few other points:
It's always "Cash" to the seller
No one wants to "give their stuff away". If the seller would take 50 cents on the dollar, I would buy the vessel and "flip it". Why would I bring you in on the situation? (unless you were a good loyal client!)
Keep in mind what you think the boat "needs" is your opinion ( unless related to safety and condition) and is limited concern to the seller. I have had many potentials claim the vessel needs.... and they proceed to list every thing they want on their boat.
Find a broker with the CPYB designation and that works in the profession full time; there are way too many in the business that are part timers. Would you use a part time doctor or lawyer?
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