Long stay visa help? Spain? France?

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Kalinka1

Have sort of done this. When in ireland it was hard to find a Garda Officer to clear us in took 4 days and we eventually met them in the club bar! Norway the first year we were cleared in over the phone by the Marina manager calling I assume the Police immigration Officer. ireland and UK very difficult to find some one to stamp your passport if travelling by boat! Norway the Officer came to the boat because he was bored with the Airport! You can't do Norway in one season! Nor Ireland or the UK. We found if you make an effort to comply with the rules by speaking to the authorities then just about anything is possible. When we were in Norway the immigration asked us if we needed more time to just phone them and we could have another 3 months.!

Thanks for the reassurance to our thinking.

To the OP: To save days in the Schengen, we cleared out of Madeira Portugal (stamped exit info in our passport and everything) for our sail to the Canaries. When we arrived in the Canaries, the immigration officer kept saying that we were already in the Schengen and we didn't need to check back in. We tried two other Ports of Entry and an airport and all said the same thing and wouldn't clear us back in to the territory since they believed we never left.

So, even though we checked out of Portugal, it seems that not all immigration officers understand that days at sea do not count against your 90 days... these officers in Spain thought that once in, you were in until you went to a non Schengen country.

We did overstay our 90 days waiting for a weather window to leave across the Atlantic. When we checked out of the Canaries (just to get paperwork for the next country), they never even looked at how many days we had been in. It really was no big deal at all to them.

Also, in Madeira, Immigration told us when we arrived that they'll just check us in and out on the day we leave. None of our time there was counting against our 90 days.

Coming from the strictness and 'by the book' of the US and Latin countries of the Western Caribbean, I was amazed at how relaxed they were in these European countries. I just hope our next trip to Northern Europe has the same Immigration procedures.

Matt

[hellosailor]

"You believe the authorities can't figure out how long you've spent in the area. "
At least in the US, or with US tax authorities?
THEY DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING.
Unlike the rest of our theoretical legal system, in tax court it is the accused who has to prove their innocence. It is very much like the Napoleonic Code, the basis of French and other law but generally shunned in the US because it contradicts "innocent until proven guilty".
For instance, if you keep a boat "in the waters" of New York State for 90 days in a row, you must register the boat in NYS and pay your taxes, etcetera. If the tax men are walking the docks and they see your boat every week, they'll write you write. Then you are invited to respond with proof that your boat was somewhere else during that time. A simple gas or mooring receipt from the NJ side of the river or from CT would suffice, but YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT. All at your cost, out of your pocket. And, you have to pay whatever they have asked, up front, until they dismiss it. Or face possible fines, penalties, and seizure. All those nice things.
That's not unique to NY, that's state and federal law in all of the US. Overseas? Yes, beware Napoleonic Code and other systems. Leaving no trail and being paperless is a two-edged sword.
(Which is also why US citizens are advised to file a "zero tax due" annual income tax filing, even when their income is zero and they owe nothing. Otherwise, "failure to file" becomes another possible issue if the IRS decides you really did have an income.)

Figuring out who was where? There are full time professionals who are very good at that. And places like London, CCTV camera capitol of the world, where "invisible" is often simply impossible.

For some of us, dotting the i's and crossing the t's and having good reason to make sure there will be no surprises doesn't seem so unreasonable, given the alternatives. PITA maybe, but that's sadly normal these days.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"You believe the authorities can't figure out how long you've spent in the area. "
At least in the US, or with US tax authorities?
THEY DON'T HAVE TO PROVE ANYTHING.
Unlike the rest of our theoretical legal system, in tax court it is the accused who has to prove their innocence. It is very much like the Napoleonic Code, the basis of French and other law but generally shunned in the US because it contradicts "innocent until proven guilty".
For instance, if you keep a boat "in the waters" of New York State for 90 days in a row, you must register the boat in NYS and pay your taxes, etcetera. If the tax men are walking the docks and they see your boat every week, they'll write you write. Then you are invited to respond with proof that your boat was somewhere else during that time. A simple gas or mooring receipt from the NJ side of the river or from CT would suffice, but YOU HAVE TO PROVE IT. All at your cost, out of your pocket. And, you have to pay whatever they have asked, up front, until they dismiss it. Or face possible fines, penalties, and seizure. All those nice things.
That's not unique to NY, that's state and federal law in all of the US. Overseas? Yes, beware Napoleonic Code and other systems. Leaving no trail and being paperless is a two-edged sword.
(Which is also why US citizens are advised to file a "zero tax due" annual income tax filing, even when their income is zero and they owe nothing. Otherwise, "failure to file" becomes another possible issue if the IRS decides you really did have an income.)

Figuring out who was where? There are full time professionals who are very good at that. And places like London, CCTV camera capitol of the world, where "invisible" is often simply impossible.

For some of us, dotting the i's and crossing the t's and having good reason to make sure there will be no surprises doesn't seem so unreasonable, given the alternatives. PITA maybe, but that's sadly normal these days.

I agree with everything you said here, but a minor pedantic point about the so-called "Napoleonic Code" -- it's a myth that in France or other civil law countries, that you are guilty until proven innocent. First of all, the "Napoleonic Code" (the Civil Code of France) doesn't even deal with guilt or innocence -- it covers only civil matters. Second, the presumption of innocence of criminal accused is explicitly stated in the Declaration of the Rights of Man of 1789, which is still good constitutional law in France, and has been in every French criminal code since. The presumption of innocence in the U.S. system is not spelled out like this -- it's considered to be implied by the 5th Amendment. So if anything, the presumption of innocence is STRONGER in France, than it is in the U.S.

Not to take away from your excellent point, but I just wanted to put a stake through the heart of this urban myth, which is completely false.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You keep going off into the weeds on technicalities. You believe the authorities can't figure out how long you've spent in the area.

I am not saying they can't.
Which is why I have written:

" if I make sure never to stay to long in one place I will not become a tax resident."

The do not know where I was (and for how long) before I arrived in their area. If I leave before I have stayed long enough so that they might consider me a resident I will not have problems with being considered a resident.

I'm certain they can. Since you are unwilling to be convinced by factual data, I'm done arguing it with you on the subject. Have at it.

Within Schengen nobody is keeping tabs on your whereabouts. That is a fact. So if you move around you will not become a tax resident somewhere.

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Many Schengen countries, for example the Netherlands, require visiting yachts, even EU flagged ones, to check in and provide full passport details of all non EU citizens on board, even if you are coming from another Schengen country. And the border guards come and see you, too.

We are boarded from time to time, at least a couple of times a year - once last year on the high seas! - and passports are always the first thing they check.

Don't even think about making a bet on their not noticing you and never checking your passport.

When we arrived in Spain with a Russian on board there was actually nobody who could check him in. We could have just dispensed with it...

But yes, when they check they do check that your ID is indeed real, and it is yours (ie your face is on the picture). And they will check the Visa stamps.

But there is no central database that registers that "John Doe" has now travelled from Folkestone to Harlingen. Your movements are not being tracked. We are not a police state.

What they do when they run your Passport through the system is check that you have not been signalled.

I wonder btw, how that would work with the special waiver to stay 90 days in France. Could you just "check out" at the last Italian port, then check in again in France, at which time the 90 days "French clock" starts?

[boatman61]

They may be lax up North but in the Med is another matter.. illegal immigrants by the thousands coming over the water, drugs and weapons.. its a whole different game.
Lots of boats are monitored and their movements checked.. anchoring out can get you by for a while but sooner or later a Guardia boat will come and check you and others.
The anchorage in Portimao is visited by the marine police at random, I've been checked on the hook in Andratx and Alcudia, Mallorca.. going along the boot of Italy saw me stopped twice by Italian Customs.

[madsb]

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Dockhead-

We're US citizens on a US vessel looking to do a season in Norway. Our current plan is:

-Azores in June
-Ireland by July.
-We'll spend our 90days in Ireland then jump over to the UK in October.
-In mid December we'll fly to Germany to visit friends then back to the UK mid January. (Hopefully reset our 6 months in UK).
-Norway in May

Unfortunately, that makes 7 months in the UK if we can't reset out 6 month by leaving for Germany midway through. But, how enforced is the 180 days out of 365 issue? Will we have a problem no matter what?

Edit: Next issue.... after our 90 days in Norway, we had planned on sailing down to Scotland, with a quick jump to Ireland for another 90days... back to UK and start the process again for another season in the Baltic.

Thanks,

Matt

An less known non-schengen area in Northern Europe you could choose to visit is the Faroe Islands. While it is quite a detour for people wanting to cruise the Mediterranean Sea, it is not that far out of the way if you are going to Ireland, Scotland and Norway in the first place.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I agree with everything you said here, but a minor pedantic point about the so-called "Napoleonic Code" -- it's a myth that in France or other civil law countries, that you are guilty until proven innocent. First of all, the "Napoleonic Code" (the Civil Code of France) doesn't even deal with guilt or innocence -- it covers only civil matters. Second, the presumption of innocence of criminal accused is explicitly stated in the Declaration of the Rights of Man of 1789, which is still good constitutional law in France, and has been in every French criminal code since. The presumption of innocence in the U.S. system is not spelled out like this -- it's considered to be implied by the 5th Amendment. So if anything, the presumption of innocence is STRONGER in France, than it is in the U.S.

Not to take away from your excellent point, but I just wanted to put a stake through the heart of this urban myth, which is completely false.

Little bit of thread drift:

Not sure on this but if the IRS says you owe $X, is that a criminal or civil case?

Innocence until proven guilty is normally associated with criminal cases.
Arguments over money are usually civil cases where it's preponderance of the evidence as the standard.

So if the IRS simply states that you made a mistake and is not pressing for criminal charges...is it a civil or criminal case if it goes to court?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Little bit of thread drift:

Not sure on this but if the IRS says you owe $X, is that a criminal or civil case?

Innocence until proven guilty is normally associated with criminal cases.
Arguments over money are usually civil cases where it's preponderance of the evidence as the standard.

So if the IRS simply states that you made a mistake and is not pressing for criminal charges...is it a civil or criminal case if it goes to court?

It falls under administrative law, and in the U.S., an IRS Notice of Deficiency notice is legally presumed to be correct. In other words, the taxpayer generally has the legal burden of proof to show that the IRS determination is not correct. (I say "generally" because there were some reforms in 1998 which introduced complex rules about who has to prove what at what stage, marginally improving the situation for taxpayers but MASSIVELY improving the situation for tax LAWYERS).

Tax cases with criminal penalties (e.g. tax fraud) are different - there the taxpayer is legally presumed to be innocent, as guaranteed by the Constitution. But you have no such protection in case the IRS merely wants to bankrupt you through a Notice of Deficiency.

[hellosailor]

As Dockhead said. Administrative law is, some of us would say, an end run around our legal rights. The IRS usually files in "tax court" which is a special area of its own. Sometimes they can be outright reasonable, but sometimes they have also pursued an issue all the way up to the US Supreme Court--losing at every stage but still trying to win some ephemeral point.

Now, speaking of overstaying and borders, the border patrol folks have been boarding commercial busses in south Florida. The courts have ruled that they can operate within 100 miles of the border, and that's going to go all the way around to the USSC on this issue again, as Florida's governor points out that no part of Florida is more than 100 miles from a national border, and he doesn't think they should be able to operate all the way across an entire state.

In Cold War days and post-WW2 days, the phrase "Show me your papers!" was the hallmark of jackbooted thugs, some of us were proud that Americans, unlike Soviets and others, NEVER had to carry or show papers. Seems like folks have just forgotten about that.

But we can fix that. I was surprised someone missed it in his talking points last night. Just one executive order, declaring all persons to be mandatory and universal US citizens. No exceptions.

Then there's no need for DACA, no need for a border wall ($25 billion before overruns), no need for border patrols, and look at all the extra taxes we could collect.

Be afraid, Monopoly Money countries. Be very afraid. One piece of paper, and you'll all become US Citizens! You'll have to leave Schwengenland before your 90 days are up! Bwahahahahahah!

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by madsb

An less known non-schengen area in Northern Europe you could choose to visit is the Faroe Islands. While it is quite a detour for people wanting to cruise the Mediterranean Sea, it is not that far out of the way if you are going to Ireland, Scotland and Norway in the first place.

Great info and something for us to think about. I saw the Faroes were a Danish possession and assumed they were in the Schengen.

Matt

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Be afraid, Monopoly Money countries. Be very afraid. One piece of paper, and you'll all become US Citizens! You'll have to leave Schwengenland before your 90 days are up! Bwahahahahahah!

I don’t get this. Why?

[boatman61]

Seem to remember an American couple who got their boat impounded in Portugal.. they thought spending time in the Channel Islands.. (Jersey to be precise..) put them out of Schengen Territory.. which it does.. however the authorities felt differently and stopped them in Porto on their way to the Canaries.
They then made the mistake off trying to do a runner from Portugal leaving the marina at night.. they were chased and brought back by the Policia Maritimo and the boat was impounded..
Don't know what the final outcome was..
So really.. take what's said on here with however many grains of salt as you choose when it comes to the EU.. many local officials don't know for sure.. so how can you expect a predominantly US site to be wiser.
Just takes one official to wreck your life.

[hellosailor]

KVB-
Well, no, we haven't nationalized the rest of the world yet. I see the poker-faced humor zipped right over your head, sorry about that.
But consider, if the US did declare everyone to be a US citizen, well then, everyone in Schengenland would be US citizens, and as such only allowed to stay in their homes for 90 days out of any 180, just like every other US citizen. Right?

One of my professors was the equivalent of a supreme court justice in Czechoslovakia when the Soviets took over. One day, he was informed that he had been nominated to join the Communist Party. Thinking quickly, he said "But I am not worthy of joining the Party. And he was told "But all judges must be members of the Party." He accepted with honor...and eventually literally walked out of the country in the middle of winter, with his family.

When such a great honor is conferred upon people, sometimes they have a hard time accepting it.

"NO! I am _____ I am not a US citizen!"
Uh, too bad, we nationalized you? Who do you appeal that one to? (WEG)

[K_V_B]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

But consider, if the US did declare everyone to be a US citizen, well then, everyone in Schengenland would be US citizens, and as such only allowed to stay in their homes for 90 days out of any 180, just like every other US citizen. Right?

Wrong.

Ever heard of "dual nationality"?