Loss of KELAERIN Rescue of Crew June 2018

[Snowpetrel]

^^ sounds good Pelagic. Especially the daylight part. I am also a fan of having crew safely below where possible.

I guess Dogmatisim has it's place in that it gives a feeling of surety and a definate plan to help combat any confusion about what options to take, so in some ways it is good, but it doesn't mean your way is best, or the only option. And if your dogmatic meothod fails it can lead to a pretty serious case of psychological distress.

Better to have a plan A,B and C and a good awareness of the limitations of each for your boat and situation.

[JPA Cate]

I didn't want to loose any hard won westing.

I think this, the desire not to lose hard won ground, is a pretty understandable urge, a weakness, or a potential one, in many of us, to be aware of in ourselves. It is a mistake I've made.

Ann

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I think this, the desire not to lose hard won ground, is a pretty understandable urge, a weakness, or a potential one, in many of us, to be aware of in ourselves. It is a mistake I've made.

Ann

Very true! In this case I while didn't feel 100% comfortable hove too, I also didn't feel in any real danger, but I was acutely aware that we would have been very vulnerable to a oddball larger breaker coming though. Also we had to balance the risks of extra time in the tasman by running off for a day or so, staying longer in what seemed like a deepening low, vs risking holding our ground.

Had it got any worse we would have struck the main and run off with the drogue. Earlier that year we had been through a much worse system heading to Bluff on that boat and we ran with the drogue for a night. It was unpleasant, but she came through with no issues except a damaged windvane, wet bunks, and a very poor nights sleep.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I think this, the desire not to lose hard won ground, is a pretty understandable urge, a weakness, or a potential one, in many of us, to be aware of in ourselves. It is a mistake I've made.

Ann

A useful mindset when it comes to weather, is to be a fatalist![emoji4]

I guess one of the major influences of making Ocean passages professionally and with commercial training, is to understand the manning requirements for a sustainable passage.

This plays into your point Ann about sometimes making the wrong decision to NOT accept your loss, when you are too tired from just two people on a long passage.

As in Kelaerin case, you get to a point on a windward course, then deteriorating weather, where short sleeps only happens at the point of exhaustion and because you are worried about the safety of your partner alone on deck.

I made a promise to myself when I bought stargazer that I would not stress myself or my partner, by having less than 4 on a long nonstop passage.

It is not because we couldn't do it, but because it is so much easier at night, with rotating every 2 hrs, a new person onto a two person watch, so that crew feel relaxed above and below deck

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

One thing I have learnt from this thread is the number of experienced sailors who strongly believe heaving too is safer than running off under bare poles.

from my experience, this depends quite a bit on boat design.

Silk (our centerboard ketch) just loved to heave-to, and was quite happy and comfortable doing it in her two worst blows (a tropical depression in the gulf stream with multiple direction wave trains, and a storm south of Madagascar).

Hawk (deep bulbed keel fractional sloop) really did not heave to well, was too twitchy, and preferred to forereach or run - running with a drogue when it got near surfing speeds (although she was marvelous surfing with a human helmsman I never really trusted the autopilot to do it for long periods). Interesting, we never considered fore reaching on Hawk to be very 'uncomfortable' - or to be more accurate - pretty much everything in a storm at sea is 'uncomfortable' and forereaching did not seem much worse (on that boat) on that dimension than the alternatives.

If I extrapolate a bit . . . I might suggest that boats which sail upwind really well and really effectively probably often don't heave-to so very well (because they are hard to stall), while boats which are more average in their ability to go upwind will stall more easily and heave-to in a more steady fashion.

As to running 'free', my experience has been #1 it is often great right up until it is not; but that #2 there has always (in my experience) been a sign/signal/indication that I should do something else before it becomes a disaster. You just need to be aware of what these signals could be and to actually listen to them and take action (all of which I suspect you are). Just as an example, that wave pop in the KELAERIN helo video would probably have been a signal to me to do something different - nothing particularly bad happened right there but if circumstances had been just a little different (wave or boat a little off-axis, and perhaps a second crest close behind) it could have been bad. In that case, either speeding up (a little jib out), forereaching, or drogue would have been on my personal list to consider and would have depended on the forecast and my objective (and the boat design) . . . as I have mentioned I would probably have chosen to forereach given what I know about the circumstances.

Hawk loved drogues. She was a touch twitchy with reasonably high helm loads when just below surfing speeds - but a small speed-limiting drogue would smooth the steering right out and you could still make excellent miles towards your destination with very high control. When she got over surfing speed, the helm loads dropped dramatically and she was extremely responsive to a human helm and could be hand steered at double-digit rates very nicely and easily, but if you make a mistake the cost would be high and the autopilot could not anticipate well enough to do the job well.

We experimented with the 'double series' concept that Thinwater mentioned. It worked well in the circumstances we used it, but we never really put it to the big breaking wave test so I don't have the concrete ultimate experience to say it (or is not) the equal of the full series in really bad conditions.

We always kept our decks very clean - cleaner than the vast majority of cruising boats today. On Silk we did not have a dodger because I did not 'believe' in the seamanship of the normal canvas dodger (on Hawk we ofc put on a massively strong hard dodger). This limited the damage potential which water across the decks could cause. ofc in the worse potential cases there could be fundamental structural damage but short of that . . . not very much. We also (Beth was primarily credited with this) also stowed and secured our boats very very well when we went to sea - we could be knocked down and relatively little went flying. I always remember dashew at dinner one night saying that mast in the water should not be a traumatic event for a cruising boat, that it happened at least once a passage for him and they just popped back up and kept going. I can't say we were ever that blase about it but, there is a lot of value to preparing that way.

[Neptune's Gear]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

https://youtu.be/AT6i_Ta3hAk

We had similar to this, with 35-40kn on the (uncalibrated) windspeed indicater, and a bigger underlying swell. Note the angle on the apparent wind gauge around 1:05. Near enough 85 deg apparent. Maybe more main needs to be set. This is pretty typical in my experience. Any tips?

This, IMO, is not hove to. It’s lying ahull with some sail. The sail is baggy, reef line to slack, flatten it like a board, then pull up the traveler until the right angle (circa 30 deg) to the wind is achieved. If there are large breakers around, I’d use my parachute. Being properly hove to is lying close to the wind, making no progress, either for or aft, but drifting slowly to leeward.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

This, IMO, is not hove to. It’s lying ahull with some sail. The sail is baggy, reef line to slack, flatten it like a board, then pull up the traveler until the right angle (circa 30 deg) to the wind is achieved. If there are large breakers around, I’d use my parachute. Being properly hove to is lying close to the wind, making no progress, either for or aft, but drifting slowly to leeward.

I agree completely, however my one experiance attempting heaving to like this in a decent blow with the mainsail only resulted in exactly the same situationa as the video. And I tryed every combination of traveller, mainsheet and helm positions for about 4 hours with no improvement. And yes my reef was a fair bit tidier than the one in the video.

I was pretty miffed because I had just done a fair bit of research on Jon Saunders and his multiple non stop RTW voyages in the same design, and his goto was to heave too. The conclusions I came to was that the big RF headsail created too much windage forward. And the S&S I was on had the short boom, so the sail didn't extend aft much. Maybe a low aspect trysail would have helped?

But neither of these details would have changed the dynamic that in the troughs the wind would ease, and on the crests we would be layed over by the wind. At one point I thought shaking a reef out might help in the trough, but she felt more than powered up enough on the crest.

So it really does seem like every boat is a bit different from a heaving too POV.

[Neptune's Gear]

Yeah, all boats are different. Even a trisail off the back stay, to give more windage aft??
Island Time needs the traveller up pretty high to windward, but most of my experience at this has been in the one boat. Sometimes you may have to think outside the box. Larry Pardey used to reckon he could get almost anything to heave to, given a bit of time.

[Pelagic]

I have never seen a video of a vessel lying Ahull in real Storm conditions!

Sustained Winds above 70knts.
Seas 10m+,
Exploding crests
Horizontal spume

So its hard to describe how really helpless you are in those conditions and that you have no choice but to depend on the integrity of the boat and the condition you had set up earlier to protect the crew.

The videos shown are really "manageable" Gale conditions and as such... you have options.

But as others have said, you can sucesfully hand steer the boat to maintain control up to a point, where you can't!

It is that transitional point, where crew can get seriously hurt, unless you have decided earlier on in daylight, to become passive and set up accordingly.

[El Pinguino]

A little something about seastate, wave trains, etc.....

This is ex Windy.com using the ECMWF model.....

This is the sea ( and swell ) produced by a rapidly deepening and fast moving Southern Hemisphere low....

I think the idea that you are dealing with a simple sea and swell state running with the current wind is simplistic... real life is a lot uglier than that....

Here you have the sea from the SW produced by the wind.... plus a 2.8 metre swell from the SE all combined with a decaying swell from the NNE.....

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Neptune's Gear

This, IMO, is not hove to. It’s lying ahull with some sail. The sail is baggy, reef line to slack, flatten it like a board, then pull up the traveler until the right angle (circa 30 deg) to the wind is achieved. If there are large breakers around, I’d use my parachute. Being properly hove to is lying close to the wind, making no progress, either for or aft, but drifting slowly to leeward.

Agree especially on sail trim. I did see the slick created by stalled keel which I understand is key to tripping most breakers before they get to you?

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

swell state running with the current wind

We would always consider what tack/jybe is best to be on when forereaching/hove-to/running.

The main considerations were (usually) course away from low/bad stuff, secondary swell direction, and anticipated wind shift.

My experience has been that the significant secondary swell is a more common issue in the southern ocean (than elsewhere I have sailed). We ran across it occasionally elsewhere (I remember a couple times in the gulf stream), but it was a constant issue in the southern ocean - and also align you best with any secondary waves.

Dashew talks about the 'which tack/jibe' decision, but I don't remember seeing it in many other storm tactic write up's - it can be quite important - save you from having to do a major evolution during bad conditions if you set up right at the start.

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Agree especially on sail trim. I did see the slick created by stalled keel which I understand is key to tripping most breakers before they get to you?

I dont think the slick is worth alot, it might calm the small stuff but it does nothing to stop any dangerous waves.

At any rate regardless of how well hove to your boat is. In any big dangerous breaking wave you will end up beam on to it without some sort of sea anchor off the bow. The orbital forces in the wave are far stronger than the sails ability to hold the bow up.

[Jim Cate]

At any rate regardless of how well hove to your boat is. In any big dangerous breaking wave you will end up beam on to it without some sort of sea anchor off the bow. The orbital forces in the wave are far stronger than the sails ability to hold the bow up.

Agreed! And I question the efficacy of the small, nearby parachute in really helping, for it will be involved with the same orbital and cascading currents.

In short, being in big breaking seas is the pits!

Jim

[Snowpetrel]

I'd suggest playing in the surf is a reasonably good way to understand the mechanics and power if a breaking wave. I have done a fair bit of seakayaking in the surfzone. It's facinating what works and what doesn't.

My lessons from a kayak in the surf..

1) You need a fair bit of forward speed to punch through even a small breaker. If you are a tiny bit off line, or too slow you get shoved backwards and reverse broached.

2) slipping sideways can work well, but only with lots of skill using the paddle to brace into the wave. I think this is only going to work on proas and cats.

3) surfing ahead of the slow surf break works well, provided you can go fast enough and keep the bow up. Stick the bow under the water and it's all over. Not sure most crusing yachts can go fast enough in a real blow to keep ahead of a 30 knot wave.

4) a small sea anchor astern worked very well. Surf that was full on without the drogue became pretty easy with it out.

5) steering around the breakers is inportant. But no matter how skilled you are you will still get caught out.

6) being able to roll is very handy...

7) even small surf has a huge amount of power!

8) greenland paddles work great, and a small amount of grip in solid water can make all the difference. Much like a drogue.

9) it's awesome fun, good fitness and way cheaper than sailing!

10) a good kayaker makes it look easy but it most certainly is not. Lots of skill needed.

11) those Inuit's are super clever for evolving developing such a refined concept.

None of these videos are of me! I am no where near as good. I'd get killed in those waves. Some of them even use sails...
https://youtu.be/aBYKNB-P8_M


https://youtu.be/3UQ9oWLX3OM


https://youtu.be/_E_Wwa9XIb8


https://youtu.be/DNTiAc3hQjs


https://youtu.be/XHQGUbMSPTM