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Old 28-01-2015, 11:53   #46
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

I just typed in free ABYC standards and up came a copy write disclaimer, indicating they are covered by copy write law, followed by all of the standards in plain text. So you can look up anything you want but you cant use it for profit.
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Old 28-01-2015, 13:10   #47
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Other countries publish standards for free as a safety service
... when the government 'owns' the standards, or has made other arrangements. ABYC is a non-profit independent standards body; they are supported by membership, and by the fees for certification, and sales of copies of standards (primarily to industry; they are not written for the general public) .
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Old 28-01-2015, 15:16   #48
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by lesterbutch View Post
So you can look up anything you want but you cant use it for profit.
Just to be clear, you can be in violation of copyright laws even if you are not using the material for profit.
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Old 28-01-2015, 15:22   #49
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
ABYC Electrical Standards E-11 are law in Canada.
Do you have a link to that on a Canadian Government site?
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Old 28-01-2015, 16:30   #50
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Do you have a link to that on a Canadian Government site?

Check this link, and look at Section 8
http://www.tc.gc.ca/Publications/en/...HR/TP1332E.pdf
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Old 28-01-2015, 16:44   #51
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

Here is the home page with table of contents.
https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/marinesafet...2-menu-521.htm
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Old 28-01-2015, 17:11   #52
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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The comical thing () is that most standards are this way; electrical code, building code, ASTM and SAE standards. In many cases they become the basis of law, but in order to read and understand the law you need to buy the code book--often standards are incorporated only by reference but not restated. It feels like a failure in government... and I'm a member of ASTM and NFPA!
And some municipalities take building codes and add, subtract or re-write the national codes completely. And then the inspectors interpret the codes the way they see fit. On one job I had the electrical inspector come on the jobsite and tell me we had to do it this way. Then he retires and the new inspector comes on the same jobsite and overrules the old one. The text in the code never changed, only the interpretation.
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Old 28-01-2015, 18:33   #53
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Other countries publish standards for free as a safety service, standards are similar accross Europe and North America. It is also interesting to compare them. For example; in US & EU standards AC & DC grounds must or must not be connected or must be. One argues that if the AC ground is lost then DC cases are still grounded. Yhe other that is the ground point shears leaving the ground wires connected all DC equipment can become AC live. Safety is often a perspective.
Bunk ! The ABYC standards cost a couple of hundred dollars. The CE standards cost a couple of thousand. I know I have bought them both.

The European approach to the ground bonding issue is to protect the boat while ABYC approach is to protect the crew ...... your choice.
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Old 29-01-2015, 09:28   #54
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roland stockham View Post
Other countries publish standards for free as a safety service, standards are similar accross Europe and North America. It is also interesting to compare them. For example; in US & EU standards AC & DC grounds must or must not be connected or must be. One argues that if the AC ground is lost then DC cases are still grounded. Yhe other that is the ground point shears leaving the ground wires connected all DC equipment can become AC live. Safety is often a perspective.
I think I understand the general point you are trying to make (may be), but your specific example needs clarification. Using the ABYC standards, with wiring and properly designed equipment installed per the manufacturer's and the ABYC standard, you should not create a situation where a all DC equipment can become AC alive.

Of course, you can make anything metallic or electrically conductive AC hot through improper installation and/or equipment, poor maintenance, shoddy and careless installation, etc. If you know of a specific example, please share it so we can identify and discuss the issue.
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Old 29-01-2015, 09:38   #55
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
Do you have a link to that on a Canadian Government site?
TP1332E

Just in case you didn't know .. "TP" stands for "Transport Publication" as in Transport Canada Publication. The "E"E suffix indicated it's in English.

TP1332E is the main standard but there are many others. You could spend months looking through these (I have). for example TP1861 says that all nav lights must meet ABYC standards. There are dozens of TP's .... have fun
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Old 29-01-2015, 09:41   #56
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by boatpoker View Post
Bunk ! The ABYC standards cost a couple of hundred dollars. The CE standards cost a couple of thousand. I know I have bought them both.

The European approach to the ground bonding issue is to protect the boat while ABYC approach is to protect the crew ...... your choice.
I suspect you haven't

the ISO specs run about 50 swiss francs current about 55 euros per spec ( was a lot cheaper a month ago !!)

see ISO - ISO Standards - ISO/TC 188 - Small craft

There is about 40 specs, but you don't need every spec

The RCD documentation is free but contains little reference to actual specs.

There is no specific requirement in Europe to build to the ISO specs, just like ABYC in the USA

I would argue the ISO specs are now much more comphrensive and detailed then the ABYC specs and given the USA is a major player on the ISO board, it should switch to those over ABYC.

On the bonding issue, Your statement is completely false. The ISO spec states that the earth DC negative wire CAN be omitted once a whole boat RCD is fitted.

The ABYC code was developed before its recent and late conversion to the land of the RCB ( ELCI)

both standards seek to protect the person. You can argue which is more effective, but marina electrocution is virtually unheard of in Europe given the preponderance of RCB protection at multiple levels in the boat and marina installation, while the ABYC approach offers little extra gain, but exposes the underwater metals to impressed current corrosion, when you add in the unexplained US desire to bind all fittings together on a GRP boat,
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Old 29-01-2015, 10:18   #57
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I suspect you haven't

the ISO specs run about 50 swiss francs current about 55 euros per spec ( was a lot cheaper a month ago !!)

see ISO - ISO Standards - ISO/TC 188 - Small craft

There is about 40 specs, but you don't need every spec

The RCD documentation is free but contains little reference to actual specs.

There is no specific requirement in Europe to build to the ISO specs, just like ABYC in the USA

I would argue the ISO specs are now much more comphrensive and detailed then the ABYC specs and given the USA is a major player on the ISO board, it should switch to those over ABYC.

On the bonding issue, Your statement is completely false. The ISO spec states that the earth DC negative wire CAN be omitted once a whole boat RCD is fitted.

The ABYC code was developed before its recent and late conversion to the land of the RCB ( ELCI)

both standards seek to protect the person. You can argue which is more effective, but marina electrocution is virtually unheard of in Europe given the preponderance of RCB protection at multiple levels in the boat and marina installation, while the ABYC approach offers little extra gain, but exposes the underwater metals to impressed current corrosion, when you add in the unexplained US desire to bind all fittings together on a GRP boat,
More baloney The ISO and RCD's both of which are somewhat available online are NOT the standards. The Standards much be purchased through CE at great expense. The high cost is likely due to bureaucracy bloated with RCD and ISO people.

ABYC standards have been in existence for decades longer than CE, in fact the first edition of the CE standards was virtually stolen from ABYC and changed to metric in a political move to keep US boats out of Europe. This gamesmanship succeeded for quite a few years.

ESD is "virtually" unheard of in Europe because it's a different market. You have a fraction of the fresh water marinas that we have in North America and a great many of the boats in in your fresh water lakes are much simpler with fewer of them have AC/DC systems.

Please send the link for the Free CE standards
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Old 29-01-2015, 10:19   #58
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Re: Who is the ABYC, Why are they so Powerful?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
the ISO specs run about 50 swiss francs current about 55 euros per spec ( was a lot cheaper a month ago !!)

see ISO - ISO Standards - ISO/TC 188 - Small craft

There is about 40 specs, but you don't need every spec
To be fair, to get the whole ISO specs for small boats would cost many hundreds if not thousands, and certainly more than even the non-member price for the whole ABYC specs. I think this was BP's point

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow
The ABYC code was developed before its recent and late conversion to the land of the RCB ( ELCI)

both standards seek to protect the person. You can argue which is more effective, but marina electrocution is virtually unheard of in Europe given the preponderance of RCB protection at multiple levels in the boat and marina installation, while the ABYC approach offers little extra gain, but exposes the underwater metals to impressed current corrosion, when you add in the unexplained US desire to bind all fittings together on a GRP boat,
Small quibble - you can't blame the ABYC for the fact that North American AC electrical standards are so far behind Europe. It's not just the ABYC that are late to ELCIs. So the ABYC spec has to address the current North American risks.
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