Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 28-08-2003, 05:25   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 1
Thumbs down RF Noise from Mastervolt Alpha Pro

Hi All,

If you are looking at installing a "Smart" regulator
on an existing alternator,
BE WARNED...
DO NOT BUY a Mastervolt Alpha Pro.

They produce high levels (S7 to S9) of wide-band Radio Frequency (RF) noise.
This causes so much radio interference that it prevents reception
of most HF radio signals such as weather fax, airmail etc while
the engine is running.

So far, the dealer has suggested fixing the problem by
1: "Put the regulator in an aluminium box"
2: "cover all the leads to the alternator in alfoil"
How about that for great service ?
A better suggestion would be to drop it overboard...

When I return from cruising this season,
I'll be removing it from the boat,
and replacing it with something that works properly and doesn't
produce RF noise.

Any suggestions which SMART REGULATOR is better ?

David
SV Bach and Byte
__________________

__________________
BachAndByte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28-08-2003, 06:55   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
CSY Man's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Ft. Lauderdale
Boat: Duffy Balboa, 18'
Posts: 2,439
Images: 99
Well, I have a 3 stage smart regulator made by PowerLine.
It produces no RF noise to my knowledge, but I do have 2 noise filters behind the electrical panel.


(Installed before I bought the boat, so I am not sure if they were put in to fix a problem, or some sort of preventive fix.)


I get noise from the 12 volt Danfoss fridge/freezer compressor on the SSB...Not a big problem as I can turn it off for the few times I am actually using the radio.
__________________

__________________
CSY Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2003, 02:02   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1
I have the same Master Volt equipment and experience the same problem with HF interference.

My answer , or more precisely my electrician's answer, was to install a cut out switch which can be used to dis-connect the alternator output when the engine is running. Voila no RF interference to the HF. Of course the batteries are not being charged, but for the limited time the HF set is used this has not been a problem.

Of interest our Danfoss 12 V compressor causes interference to the VHF radio, not on receive, just on transmit. The only cure is to switch off the fridge when transmitting on the VHF.

It just makes life interesting

Fair Winds

Proctor
__________________
proctor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2004, 18:19   #4
Registered User
 
Justjim's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: San Carlos Mexico/Vancouver, BC
Posts: 2
Send a message via Yahoo to Justjim
pirate interested in the name you use !

Hi - my name is Bach - jim bach and I was wondering if the Bach & Byte was a relative. Originally out of Flint Michigan - then to Canada. A curious mind awaits you. Take care, Jim
__________________
Justjim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2004, 04:33   #5
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 25,012
Images: 240
Alternator & Regulator Noise

Alternator & Regulator Noise:

Alternator induced radio noise is a high pitched whine whose pitch and intensity increases and decreases with changes in engine speed. Often at full RPM the noise can not be heard - not because it’s gone but because the frequency is out of normal hearing range. Turning the alternator master switch off (Field Disconnect) also eliminates the radio noise.

Solid state regulators, particularly those that use a pulse-width-modulated field- control system (the best type) can also create alternator whine. Whine caused by the regulator can be distinguished from the alternator in that regulator induced noise intensity changes in intensity and pitch with current load at a constant engine speed. Thus turning on very large electrical loads won't increase alternator whine, but will increase regulator induced alternator whine.

Current generated in the alternator stator windings is alternating and is converted to direct current before it leaves the alternator. Alternator diodes rectify the current from AC to DC. Six diodes are required to rectify the three stator phases. Three diodes comprise the positive cluster and three the negative cluster. As the voltage of each phase increases, a given pair of diodes becomes forward biased and allows alternator current to pass. Which stator winding and diode pair that is conducting at any moment depends upon rotor position. The combined result is a DC voltage with a slight amount of AC ripple voltage. Ripple voltage conducts into the electrical bus and then into the radio circuit.

Ripple voltage can be detected on the electrical bus with an oscilloscope. Another method is to use a volt meter set to AC volts. Connect a capacitor in series to the positive lead from the meter to block out the DC voltage so that only the ripple voltage gets to your meter. The capacitor is an open circuit to DC but passes AC. The peak to peak voltage reading is then the amount of ripple voltage on the bus.

Normally, there is not enough ripple voltage to cause radio noise (> 1 V). But, there are two conditions that can cause an increase in ripple voltage and radio noise:
- diode failure
and
- increased circuit impedance.

If a diode fails the amount of ripple voltage increases. Alternator whine can be a symptom of a bad alternator diode. The two test methods used to test the alternator without disassembly generally require “professional” instruments (Alternator Tester, or Oscilloscope)

With the alternator apart the diodes can be checked with a VOM meter. This test makes sure that each diode conducts in only one direction. Disassemble the stator leads from the rectifier. Calibrate the VOM on the R x 1 multiplier range scale so that there is zero reading with the VOM leads shorted together.

Positive diode test:
Connect one test probe to the large positive terminal stud and touch the other test probe to each of the three stator terminals.
Note the three ohmmeter readings - they must be identical.
Reverse the test probes and repeat the test. Note the three ohmmeter readings - again they should be identical to each other, but not the same as in the previous step.
Three of the ohmmeter readings should show a low resistance reading of approximately 6 to 20 ohms, and three should show an infinite reading (no meter movement).

Negative diode test:
Repeat the test but connect one test probe to the small negative terminal stud.

Power Wiring Causes:

Alternator whine can be caused by poor electrical connections, especially at the battery. Voltage ripple cannot occur in a zero impedance electrical circuit. Impedance is simply the amount of resistance to high frequency current. It is analogous to DC resistance and like DC resistance is measured in ohms. The low impedance of the battery holds theboat’s electrical circuit at a DC potential. Any voltage ripple in the bus is absorbed by the battery. Thus, the battery acts as a large ripple voltage absorber. Alternator noise cannot occur if the electrical connections have zero impedance. Unfortunately, there will always be some impedance and ripple voltage in the electrical circuit; but the better the electrical connections the less there will be.

Lets assume that the battery positive terminal is corroded. Although DC resistance as measured with an ohm meter may still be low, the high frequency resistance may be very high. The higher this resistance, the greater the amount of voltage ripple on the bus and the greater the radio whine.

Improper grounding techniques may be the prime culprits of noise generation. Often I’ve found the difference between the radio grounds and the battery and alternator ground can be several ohms, which will cause current flow and noise.

Circuit impedance can be lowered by making sure the battery posts are clean and making good contact. Resistance should be less than .01 ohm. Also check the alternator ground connections. DC resistance between the alternator and the negative post of the battery terminal should be as low as possible.

The ideal low-noise circuit would have the alternator power output going directly to the battery's positive terminal. This dumps voltage ripple into the battery. The radio power leads (Positive & Negative) would also go directly to a nearly pure DC source, the battery.

If the alternator power lead and the radio power lead connects to a bus, then voltage ripple can go from the alternator to the radio power lead. The amount of voltage ripple at the bus depends upon the impedance between the bus and the battery. This impedance is higher than at the battery. Thus, in the ideal low-noise circuit, power termination occur at the battery. Negative power return (ground) would be wired directly back to the negative post of the battery. This prevents conducting high frequency currents through the engine block.

With less than ideal circuits, the return path is from the alternator through the mounting hardware to the engine block and through the main ground cable to the battery. These connections should have low resistance. Flat braided straps are often used because impedance is less with a braided, flat conductor than a round wire conductor.

Power up your radio with an external battery of some type, removing the effected component from ships power. If the noise goes away, you have Conducted Noise (power line). If the noise continues, you have Radiated Noise.

SOLUTIONS:

There are two methods of filtering voltage ripple; diverting the ripple voltage back to the source, or blocking the voltage ripple so that it cannot pass. Capacitors divert noise currents whereas inductors block noise currents. The most effective approach depends primarily on the circuit impedance
Capacitors are best used in high impedance circuits, whereas Inductors (Ferrites) are best used in low impedance circuits.

Capacitors divert noise currents back to the alternator return path (commonly referred to as ground). Capacitors must have a low impedance path back to the alternator to be effective. Install the filter capacitor as close to possible to the alternator. The capacitor is installed with one lead connected to the power output and the other lead to ground (placed in parallel to the circuit).

For DC voltages the capacitor forms an open circuit (high impedance) and doesn't allow any current to pass. At noise frequencies the capacitor forms a short circuit (low impedance) and passes noise currents to the alternator. In this manner we have formed a low-pass filter. The effectiveness of using a capacitor as a noise filter depends upon matching the capacitance rating of the capacitor to the frequency of the noise currents.

In order for the capacitor to be effective the impedance through the capacitor must be lower than the impedance of the original circuit. The capacitor represents an impedance of infinity (at DC voltage) to close to zero impedance at some higher frequency and then increasing impedance at even higher frequencies. One must select a capacitor whose impedance is the same or less than circuit impedance.

The effectiveness of the capacitor as a filter depends upon the capacitors capacitance and impedance, and the circuit's impedance. The higher the circuit impedance the better the capacitor filters. An ultimate high-impedance circuit is an open circuit. An example of a low-impedance circuit is a dead- short.

The frequency at which the capacitor's capacitance and inductance are equal is where it has the lowest impedance and the best filtering. This is the resonate frequency. The correct size capacitor is one where the frequency we wish to divert is the same or less than the resonate frequency.

Smaller size capacitors (Pico farad range) are effective at high frequencies and larger size capacitors (microfarad) range are effective at lower frequencies. As a rule-of-thumb if your filtering conducted interference, as you are in an alternator, then this is low frequency and your capacitor should be in the micro- farad range. If your filtering radiated interference where the conductor is acting as an antenna, this is a higher frequency and your capacitor should be in the Pico farad range.

Typically, the alternator uses a .5 to 50 microfarad capacitor. The best type of capacitor for filtering is a ceramic and then tantalum capacitor. Ceramic capacitors for the Pico farad range, and tantalum for the microfarad range. The reason ceramic is best is because of the capacitor's low series resistance. Usually ceramic has the least series resistance and electrolytic the most.

Capacitor resonance can be approximated with the following formula:
Resonant Frequency (in MHz) = 1/2 pi x the square root of Lead Length x Capacitance

Notice that total capacitor lead length has a significant affect on the capacitor's resonate frequency. For example, a 500 pf capacitor with 1/4 inch leads resonates at 100 MHz. But with 1 inch leads resonates at 50 MHZ. Lead length affects diminish as capacitance increases. As a practical rule-of-thumb capacitor lead lengths used in resonate circuits should be kept as short as possible.

Inductors (Chokes and Ferrite Beads) :

The other solution to radio noise is to block the ripple with an inductor. The most common style of inductor is a ferrite core. These come in many different styles but typically the wire with the noise currents is wrapped around the core (placed in series with the circuit). DC current passes through the core but high frequency currents induce a magnetic field in the ferromagnetic material of the core. This magnetic field raises the impedance and effectively blocks noise currents. Ferrite's are effective on radio power input leads and strobe power input leads. They prevent noise currents from entering the radio.

To be effective, ferrite impedance must be larger than circuit impedance. In a typical alternator circuit this would require a rather large ferrite. So alternator voltage ripple is usually diverted to ground by use of a capacitor. However, ferrites are simple to use and have an amazing filtering ability. It is best to install ferrites on the radio power input lead rather than on the alternator power lead.

Noise Filtres:

There are all kinds of filters commercially available that may aid in reducing alternator whine - most often a combination of a capacitor and inductor. Check with a radio professional for specific recommendations.

HTH
Gord
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
noise

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

RV & Travel Trailer Communities

Our RV & Travel Trailer sites encompasses virtually all types of Recreational Vehicles, from brand-specific to general RV communities.

» More about our RV Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:46.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.