420: Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans

[ess105]

Hi Sarge,

You should see positive regen on both sides. I've also learned that at higher boat speeds (7+ knots) the notch just above neutral is not quite the optimum and to maximize regen you need to bring the throttles up just a little higher. Because of the 'notch' they don't stay in the best position so I have a couple of pencil erasers that I have shaved to wedge in and hold them there.

I presume you show negative current on both engines when motoring. If not you probably have a sensor issue. If you do then all I can suggest is to check the connections on the appropriate side variator.

[VERTIGO]

My first post here but love this site. I would like to start out by saying thank all of you that are buying/supporting the hybrid conversions. Allot of "risk" involved in being the first ones, but without you this technology will not come out. If I had the $$ I would join you today but still 6 years out from retirement (Army) so maybe I will be buying one of your boats down the line.

I do have a couple Q's.
I read on the G2 upgrade and the part that gives me a bit of confusion is the ability to run at 100% for 10 min, what is the limiting factor that keeps you from running at 100%? Bigger genset? Batteries? Motors? I keep reading how bullet proof the motors are so I would think you could run em maybe not full always but am confused as to why you can't run 95% forever?

Second, while I am sure I will hear an earful for this, but I do like to motor, sure I love sailing but am more into the destinations and comforts at anchor. I was kind of thinking that is why one would lean towards a Lagoon, I want a safe boat for me and the family but also want to give up as little as possible while doing it. Yes I want a house on the water, some seem to think that is a sort of "crime" not me.
OK so to my other Q. Is there anyway to increase the performance of the motoring? Example: A swap for a larger prop, yes at the cost of sail speed, but part of my plans are to travel up the Mississippi to Minnesota. I did this several years back on a 28 Morgan with a 9.9 outboard, and it took some time to get down the river. On this next trip I will want to go up and down. So I think if I knew I was going to be doing more motoring at some point in time I would swim under and swap out props?
Also was wondering what the life expectancy Lagoon is saying their batteries are going to get?? I know Hitachi said they are coming out with a new bat. in the next year for the Hybrid cars, very expensive but suppose to be very light weight and really pack a punch with a ten year life expectancy.

Thanks, James

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

My first post here but love this site. I would like to start out by saying thank all of you that are buying/supporting the hybrid conversions. Allot of "risk" involved in being the first ones, but without you this technology will not come out. If I had the $$ I would join you today but still 6 years out from retirement (Army) so maybe I will be buying one of your boats down the line.

Welcome to the forum James.

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

I read on the G2 upgrade and the part that gives me a bit of confusion is the ability to run at 100% for 10 min, what is the limiting factor that keeps you from running at 100%?

I think the "10 minutes at 100%" you are referring to is when you use the emergency boost facility. By pushing this button you get full power from the batteries for ten minutes. The reason it is limited to ten minutes is that this level of draw can damage the batteries if sustained for too long. So, you use it to get out of trouble and no more. The motors are bullet-proof and can, in theory, sustain full power day and night for years, it is the lack of available electrical power that limits sustained top speeds.

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

Is there anyway to increase the performance of the motoring? Example: A swap for a larger prop, yes at the cost of sail speed, but part of my plans are to travel up the Mississippi to Minnesota. I did this several years back on a 28 Morgan with a 9.9 outboard, and it took some time to get down the river. On this next trip I will want to go up and down. So I think if I knew I was going to be doing more motoring at some point in time I would swim under and swap out props?

What sort of speeds do you want to motor at? In calm conditions a lightly-laden 420 hybrid will motor for approximately 1 hour twenty minutes at 7.4 knots, assuming you start with fully charged batteries and have the generator on throughout. After an hour and twenty minutes the level of charge will have dropped to 60%, so the speed drops to 6.5 knots, whilst the batteries are being gradually recharged back up to 80%. Thereafter, the hybrid can motor all day at 6.8 knots until the fuel runs out.

I doubt that larger props would improve your speed, unless you matched them with larger electric motors and larger generator.

I'm no marine engineer, but, in my view, the measure that would bring the largest improvement in motoring and sailing performance would be to refashion the transoms, adding 3ft to the LOA and remove the bulge below the waterline. The 420 develops a lot of turbulence at the stern, which cannot be efficient. I blame this on the barrelled out sterns and submerged transoms, which bear the hallmark of a last minute design alteration to carry the battery weight.

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

Also was wondering what the life expectancy Lagoon is saying their batteries are going to get??

The life expectancy of the standard lead-acid batteries depend very much on how you treat them. If you regularly allow them to be deeply discharged or leave them in a discharged state for long periods then they will not last as long as if you keep them well topped up (both in terms of the level of charge and the level of the battery fluid). I expect those on my boat to last five years. They are twenty months old and 'as good as new' according to the Lagoon technician who installed our upgrade. We rarely motor on batteries alone.

Chris
Octopus, L420 Hybrid
Isle of Arran, Scotland

[VERTIGO]

Thanks for the reply, the knots do not seem to drop down all that much, is there that much more power required to maintain full power?

I am more interested in the performance than speed per say. Let me clarify: I read in one post where the drives had a bit of an issue going into a 20 knot head wind. The hull drag is the hull drag, and you will not be able to do much about that without doing as you stated. But in say head winds I believe that extra power that does not seem to be available would make a big difference.

Just wondering how much more power would be required to run them at extended periods at full. I am sure there is a reason why Lagoon kept the power down, I am maybe thinking fuel economy of a larger genset would cancel out any gains made by the hybrid.

I will be heavy, this is going to home for me, speed really not an issue, I am a firm believer in having all available H.P available though. Again thank you for your time I am just trying to learn the vessel a bit.

[Octopus]

James

You are right motoring into headwinds or adverse seas can present difficulties, particularly on cats with a high windage like the 420. This is true whatever propulsion system you use, but is especially true if you don't have plenty of power in reserve. I believe that in designing a hybrid propulsion system there is a more direct trade-off between power and weight than for conventional diesel propulsion. With a hybrid system, everything has to be scaled up to handle the increased power, e.g. cables, breakers, battery bank, generator etc.. With conventional diesel you just buy a bigger engine. Costs follow the same pattern. Double the power of your hybrid system and you more than double the costs, the same isn't true for diesel engines.

Chris

[ess105]

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

I read on the G2 upgrade and the part that gives me a bit of confusion is the ability to run at 100% for 10 min, what is the limiting factor that keeps you from running at 100%? Bigger genset? Batteries? Motors? I keep reading how bullet proof the motors are so I would think you could run em maybe not full always but am confused as to why you can't run 95% forever?

Maximum power to the motors comes when applying generator and battery power together. For practical purposes this is too much power unless you want a speedboat. Under normal conditions I maintain slight net charge to the batteries when motoring. If I wanted 'full' power the system will only give this to me until the batteries drop to under 80% capacity at which point the system autmatically limits to power to ensure the batteries aren't dangerously discharged. However - for safety reasons one can override this constraint for 10 mins at a time. The only only time I've pressed this is when messing around to see if it actually works.

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

Second, while I am sure I will hear an earful for this, but I do like to motor, sure I love sailing but am more into the destinations and comforts at anchor. I was kind of thinking that is why one would lean towards a Lagoon, I want a safe boat for me and the family but also want to give up as little as possible while doing it. Yes I want a house on the water, some seem to think that is a sort of "crime" not me.
OK so to my other Q. Is there anyway to increase the performance of the motoring? Example: A swap for a larger prop, yes at the cost of sail speed, but part of my plans are to travel up the Mississippi to Minnesota. I did this several years back on a 28 Morgan with a 9.9 outboard, and it took some time to get down the river. On this next trip I will want to go up and down. So I think if I knew I was going to be doing more motoring at some point in time I would swim under and swap out props?

Changing the prop pitch can effect a trade between motoring and regen performance. If you really anticipate doing a high proportion of motoring then you may find a diesel option more appropriate. The hybrid works very well when you spend the majority of your time anchored and/or sailing.

[Mike8446]

I am a prospective Lagoon 420/421 owner and only discovered this forum yesterday -but found myself reading all the posts in one sitting - it has been a fascinating read!

What appears to be almost totally absent is the experience of diesel model owners. Do these models overcome the performance shortfall experienced by some hybrid users? How do they fare in terms of economy? Is the 'ride' more jittery without the huge weight of batteries?

Mike

[planetoftheapes]

I’ve owned Avanga, a diesel 420 for a year now, but have only spent about six weeks aboard. I believe that after you are aboard for awhile, many of the catamaran debating points become less important. Being comfortable, sailing in beautiful waters, taking a nice hot shower, a comfortable boat motion underway and at anchor, sun protection, a bright saloon with a beautiful view, making easy miles under sail, these are important. You can debate sailing speed issues all day but everyone is more relaxed if you just sail easy.

Briefly, the 420 diesel is a wonderful family cruising catamaran. She is comfortable in most any kind of weather and sails quite adequately. She’ll sail half wind speed even in the lighter stuff and is simply a joy to live aboard. I do believe the diesel 420 will outperform a hybrid 420 in light conditions but this is just speculation.

We have had virtually zero maintenance or quality issues with Avanga. I do wish I would have ordered the four cabin version because so many friends and family want to join us on sailing adventures.

I’ll be heading back to Avanga in July and hopefully will be able to provide more info. I can tell you that all the owners I know, both diesel and hybrid 420, are very happy with their boats. She is a floating condo that can actually sail.

As mentioned before, the 420 transom design, both above and below the waterline is sub-optimal. We could only make about 4 knots against 35-40 knot apparent wind and choppy seas with 40 Hp Yanmars. Still adequate to get us home.

Avanga is big, strong and comfortable. I would sail her anywhere.

[VERTIGO]

Hitachi develops automotive lithium-ion battery
having the world's highest output*1; sampling set to start in the fall


Tokyo, May 19, 2009 --- Hitachi, Ltd. (NYSE:HIT / TSE:6501,hereinafter Hitachi) today announced that Hitachi, Ltd. and Hitachi Vehicle Energy, Ltd. which develops and manufactures lithium-ion batteries for automotive applications, such as hybrid electric vehicles, have developed a lithium-ion battery having the world's highest power density of 4,500W/kg, 1.7 times the output of the company's mass-produced, automotive lithium-ion batteries. Sampling of the new battery by domestic and overseas car manufacturers will start in the fall.

News Releases : May*19,*2009 : Hitachi Global

[VERTIGO]

The Prius was released with a 1,500W/KG. I read through some developments with Hatachi and they seem to be adding 1,000W/kg per year. I cannot seem to find weight or dimensions on it. Life is supose to be over 10 Years on these.

I had heard that Lagoon did test some lithion Bat last year. I also heard they pulled them but never heard of the issue they had. I believe it was the charge time.?? Pretty excited about this, you can do a search now and find a wrecked Prius at boneyards that are selling the Bat packs pretty cheap. All good news for Hybrid owners as well future Owners.

[Anthony Ryan]

Has anyone got any data on the sailing performance of the new hull shape on the 421 (esp the diesel powered boat)?

[catfan]

Hi Anthony
My family and I have just spent a few hours on the Lagoon 421 in The Solent and we were very impressed. Manoeuverablity under motor was great - hard to believe how easy it was to leave and return to the berth. Sail handling was straight forward too, all control within easy reach of the helm. We had approximately 19- 21 knots true wind and managed a really comfortable 10 knots. Conditions in the Solent were a little bumpy but she handled them with ease, with little turbulence astern. She was also very responsive to the rudder - in summary a boat that inspires confidence. Only concern raised was the limited visibilty over the port bow from the helm station with genoa set - easily sorted by crossing the cockpit to get a look. Graham Laver, of Anasta, told us that with the new square topped mainsail is is advisable to reef a little earlier - we had one reef in and still managed a good performance (without shocking the wife and kids!)

All in all we were impressed and the Lagoon 421 is definitely on our shortlist! thanks Graham for giving us the opportunity!!

[sailvi767]

Does anyone have any information on converting a electric 420 to a diesel? I understand several boats have been converted. Most of the 420's going into charter are now diesel. Is Lagoon assisting owners who desire to convert? Anyone have any ideas on total cost for the conversion? I have a friend who has a line on a used electric 420 but would only be interested if the conversion could be done at a reasonable price.

[Octopus]

Originally Posted by sailvi767

Does anyone have any information on converting a electric 420 to a diesel? I understand several boats have been converted. Most of the 420's going into charter are now diesel. Is Lagoon assisting owners who desire to convert? Anyone have any ideas on total cost for the conversion? I have a friend who has a line on a used electric 420 but would only be interested if the conversion could be done at a reasonable price.

As you say, some owners have opted to convert to diesel. I believe these were the early hybrids that experienced a lot of problems because the control software was still in development. I suspect that Lagoon helped out with the cost of the conversion. Some of the charter operators found the hybrid unsuited to their customers, because operating a hybrid with the early software was not as foolproof as it needed to be. You need a modicum of common sense to operate a hybrid. I think these charter companies simply told Lagoon to convert the boats to diesel or they wouldn't get any more of their business. I doubt that Lagoon would contribute to the cost of conversion on a pre-owned 420 Hybrid, especially now the bugs in the software have been eliminated.

Based on my experience with the hybrid (see my other posts), I cannot understand why a private owner would convert to conventional diesel propulsion. I considered it at one stage when hearing alarming reports of battery banks being trashed and chargers being burnt out, but I'm very glad that I stuck with the hybrid.

Chris
Octopus,Lagoon 420 Hybrid
Isle of Arran, Scotland

[Geoff Strebel]

Ahoy maties! My name is Geoff and my best friend Dave and I took our families down to the BVI and rented Annie's Toy (Lagoon 380) from the Catamaran company for 10 days. I am totally hooked and have been a long, long time fan of the hybrid 420, ever since Popular Mechanics first mentioned them. I got to inspect a 420 hybrid at the dock and was blown away (lame, lame sailing joke). Way, way too cool for school if you ask me. Recently Dave and I got into an argument where we nearly drew our swords (pirate joke). He was arguing that you could use a combination of wind/solar to recharge the "boat" and I was saying thats hogwash because of the voltages in the hybrid drive system. I think its basically a pea-shooter vs. a battleship. After several pints of the finest ale we could find, we got more specific and focused on the drive batteries and not the "house" batteries. I caved and said "sure a wind generator can run your saloon fans, radio, and ipod all day long but its not going to take a 31K pound catamaran and move it very far." What is the truth? Has anyone wired wind/solar into the "drive" batteries with any success? My main argument was that power in = power out and the amount of power flowing into a wind generator (aerodynamic) is negligible when compared to the power flowing into the regenerative props (hydrodynamic) except when you are anchored. To make a long story short, whoever is right owes the other one a brand new 420 with fuzzy dice hanging from the bimini.

-Geoff

P.S. If anyone is looking for a couple to help crew your boat around the world please drop me a note. I love scrubbing barnacles. Even from "you know where".