400: 38 vs 39 vs 400

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Reefing on L 400 - not that good. Or my technique sucks. Too much friction. One has to go to the mast anyway, so may as well get better reefing.

I do not find reefing complicated and the friction does not interfere with reefing, although it may interfere with raising sail if the lines were drawn in.
The technique is simple.
For raising sail, if last use of sail was reefed, you open reefing clutches and free the lines by pulling out on cabin roof, i.e. you help the system by creating free bights on the roof and not just pull al the lines by the winch.
If last use was without reefing, there is no problem and friction anyway.
For reefing: loosen halyard part of the way, take reefing line/s in. Loosen next stage and once again take lines in. If it is done it several steps - there is no problem.
You need to go to the mast only for the 3rd reef.
This may be strange as the third reef would usually be deployed at the worst weather. However, if the third reefing line was led all the way back to the cockpit, it would be very very long.

[katsumi]

We found our reefing lines were starting to chafe have added Harken low friction rings to the attachment points on the sail and this has made reefing easier and protecting the lines.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by katsumi

We found our reefing lines were starting to chafe have added Harken low friction rings to the attachment points on the sail and this has made reefing easier and protecting the lines.

Proper blocks would be even better - except basic cost of blocks of course.

[arsenelupiga]

i also have low friction rings but chafe is still evident.

Have to go to the mast to pull ropes with hand before raising the sail. Then all good.

That not working well when reefing during sail. One can just winch but rope and also sail get decent friction, at least in my setup.

Will try advises here see how it goes.

How does one drop main sail during strong winds and waves - turn into wind, drop sail and then has to go on the roof to tie (zip) the sail as it will unfurl if left as is, before turning towards wind /waves direction again?

any tricks to avoid going on roof ?

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

i also have low friction rings but chafe is still evident.

How does one drop main sail during strong winds and waves - turn into wind, drop sail and then has to go on the roof to tie (zip) the sail as it will unfurl if left as is, before turning towards wind /waves direction again?

any tricks to avoid going on roof ?

I do not see an alternative to going up on the cabin roof if you want to close the zipper of the lazypack. If you do not want to turn into the wind, you can add a downhaul line to the top of the mainsail (I believe this is a standard on L450) led to the cockpit. You can than perform the last stage of taking sail down while sailing directly downwind with the mainsail brought to the middle of the boat by releasing halyard and taking in the downhaul.
In the rare conditions of 3rd reef on the way to sailing under bare poles, the one time chafe will be less important than the danger of change of sailing angle from DDW to bows into the wind.

[arsenelupiga]

yeah down haul seem to be the thing that is missing from L 400...

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

Have to go to the mast to pull ropes with hand before raising the sail.

any tricks to avoid going on roof ?

When you drop the main are you retrieving the reefing lines back to the helm?

I did this a few times but found the friction on the reefing lines caused too much load on the winch when next raising the main. Pulling reefing lines through to the mast helped, but now I just leave them in place and throw (as neatly as possible) them into the sail bag when dropping the main. Next time it goes up the lines just go up with the sail. If the main was reefed last time we release that reefing line and pull it through to the mast.

We have added blocks to replace shackles at reefing points on sail. Low friction rings would probably be a better choice. Less weight and cheaper.

Regards climbing onto cockpit roof. Most owners do even though Lagoon says "Non!". Biggest risk is being knocked off roof by swinging boom. We try to tighten main sheet to control boom and if going up there in choppy conditions, we clip on to main sheet running under boom. That way we move with the boom and can slid fore and aft to zip up bag. I'd rather do this job on any of the 3 smallest Lagoons than the larger fly bridge helm models.

Interestingly, recently spent some time on a Lagoon 39. It is much more of a distance from deck to cockpit roof than a L400. This boat really needs a step built for this purpose. Even though there is a greater height difference from deck to cockpit roof in a L39 compared to the L400 it has not been used for improved ventilation of the saloon. Instead of the two large front hatches of the L400, the L39 has 3 small port lights. It has poor ventilation for the tropics. The saloon windows ( on this vessel) are darkly tinted as well. Looks cool but not a good idea when watch keeping at night from the interior nav station. And then there's the "climb over your partner" berths and the extra tonne of weight over it's bigger sister. I'd better stop!

[arsenelupiga]

not retrieving reefing lines. Still getting used to the setup but tangling of reefing lines happens when raising sail. Probably not storing them nicely enough.

Some good ideas you have. Will try them out.

I have to get to the mast to pull sail all the way down. I think it is not friction of sail tracks but 2:1 halyard. My previous boat seawind had 1:1 halyard and sail went down al the way nearly every time. Sail has to be fixed or zipped not to unfurl, so going on to the roof appears unavoidable. Downhaul will not solve much but add extra rope up there.

Maybe when pulling sail down have 2 straps handy preset on lazy jack lines to tie the sail quick (with 1 hand) and hold for the mast with other and done deal until sail can be safely stored. At least one does not have to go to the end of boom in worst conditions.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I have to get to the mast to pull sail all the way down. I think it is not friction of sail tracks but 2:1 halyard. My previous boat seawind had 1:1 halyard and sail went down al the way nearly every time. Sail has to be fixed or zipped not to unfurl, so going on to the roof appears unavoidable. Downhaul will not solve much but add extra rope up there.

On usual sailing day, we drop the sails before entering the marina/bay and deal with the bag & zippers after being tied to a dock or on anchor.
The real problem is when the wind picks up to the point that you want to sail under bare poles, i.e. 2nd or 3rd reef is already deployed and the time comes to drop the sail entirely.
At this point I prefer to do the last stage sailing downwind, less apparent wind and less wave action.
Downhaul is not a must but it may help to ensure the sail is down completely. At this point there still remains the issue of how to close the lazypack that requires climbing on the roof. That issue was dealt in an above post by Tuskie describing safety procedures for roof climbing if such a trip is unavoidable.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

I have to get to the mast to pull sail all the way down. I think it is not friction of sail tracks but 2:1 halyard.

In my opinion it is friction.
Our sail, if we are positioned directly into the wind, falls down neatly all the way down into its bag. We make sure that the halyard is free and just drop the sail - on rare occasions (maybe once in ten) there is small amount of sail left that requires manual help to pull it down into the bag.
I would suggest to check the sail cars.

[monte]

Also maybe the square top main has more friction. Spray the cars occasionally with Teflon spray. Also we have a clip that we clip from the lazy jack attachment on the bag, directly to the halyard block when it's down to secure the halyard and luff of the sail. Put it on the port side as it's safer to zip the bag with the helm Bimini as a support. No need to be too neat throwing the reefing lines in the bag but always watch them carefully when raising the main to see that they're not tangled into a knot.

[arsenelupiga]

it was friction! thanks monte & merriba. 1 less to worry about

I finally had detailed look at sail tracks. didn't know they have balls in it. More solid than I thought.

meirriba : regarding reefing downwind, first or second reef - what are downsides apart from lazy jack chafe ? And signs of wear on sail track or extra main sail wear ?

i would not us this regularly, more like plan B when things go rough.

I prefer turning against wind. I tried in 33 kn true with 1 reef in main, jib rolled and it was completely non event. I guess it could take another 5 at least. 3rd reef is 50% of first reef sail area, as wind force proportional with square of wind speed, meaning that with third reef, i could turn around in around 53 kn =38 *1.4. Probably even more as centre of force is lower with 3rd reef.

That s good enough margin for me.

[meirriba]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

it was friction! thanks monte & merriba. 1 less to worry about

I finally had detailed look at sail tracks. didn't know they have balls in it. More solid than I thought.

meirriba : regarding reefing downwind, first or second reef - what are downsides apart from lazy jack chafe ? And signs of wear on sail track or extra main sail wear ?

i would not us this regularly, more like plan B when things go rough.

I prefer turning against wind. I tried in 33 kn true with 1 reef in main, jib rolled and it was completely non event. I guess it could take another 5 at least. 3rd reef is 50% of first reef sail area, as wind force proportional with square of wind speed, meaning that with third reef, i could turn around in around 53 kn =38 *1.4. Probably even more as centre of force is lower with 3rd reef.

That s good enough margin for me.

As it is a rare thing, I wouldn't worry about chafe.
I did it only when the unpleasantness of turning upwind was larger than the one time chafe to the system.
One thing more: in my opinion the most important factor in the decision of how to proceed with the reefing is the size and steepness of the waves and not wind power, and, rather obviously, if you reef on time, all this discussion turn to be rather academic...

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by meirriba

As it is a rare thing, I wouldn't worry about chafe.
I did it only when the unpleasantness of turning upwind was larger than the one time chafe to the system.
One thing more: in my opinion the most important factor in the decision of how to proceed with the reefing is the size and steepness of the waves and not wind power, and, rather obviously, if you reef on time, all this discussion turn to be rather academic...

you can get sudden wind increase but steep waves don't come that quick. As I am in reef early camp, will leave it at that for now.

Will try reefing downwind to see how it goes. Benefit, i can have more sails longer as plan B ready. Although under 120 apparent angle and 23 knots apparent (29 true) one can have full sails as per lagoon manual, I reef much, much earlier.

thks for your input.

[monte]

I'd usually reef at around 25 true. The speed difference isn't much and the helm is a lot more balanced. Often straight to the second reef..