420: Lavezzi Reefing Levels

[Dragon Lady]

Originally Posted by Eleven

Apply seamanship. If the boat doesn't slow much when you reef then you reefed too late and stressed the rig too much. If it doesn't slow at all then you were damn lucky you didn't get a downdraught.
That said you've done far more than I ever will already, I'm left wondering why you asked?

Hi eleven,

modern cats need to be sailed by the numbers so to speak.
You can not go by feel and observation alone so traditional seamanship has to be combined with specific knowledge about the cat you are sailing.
I recently had my cat up to 17kts offshore in nearly 40kts of wind with no problems but it is always nice to know what others have experienced and where the real boundaries are.
That's what these forums are about.
All the best DL

[Factor]

Reef early, there is no prize for carrying the main in ever higher winds and you just go slower. Reefing early takes the strain out of the rig, flattens the sail and gives a better shape, reduces the leeward hull immersion drag and balances the boat. There is no magic in manufacturers numbers, they are a guide, who knows how accurate your wind indicator is. The older the sails, the more likelihood they are baggy, so older sails earlier reef.

If you are out for a sail for an afternoon try putting a reef in in ridiculously low wind speeds and see what happens. I can reef at 18 knots and get little or no boat speed change. I have a very large roach on the main.

Also upwind its all about apparent speed and down wind its all about true. (in terms of reefing and understand whats happening to the boat)

You can still sail a multi by feel you just have to develop that different feel. And in defence of Eleven I think he has a fair bit of multi experience - albeit on an older cat.

[Dragon Lady]

I thinks there's been some misunderstanding with these last few posts, apologizes if I have offended anyone.
Thanks for the input Factor, as a new cat owner I am on a step learning curve at the moment so lots of dumb questions from me.
I think it's going to take me a while to get the sail by feel bit worked out so I'll have to stick to the numbers in the mean time.

[Le Doume]

Originally Posted by ShaunJ

lE dOUME, Where exactly does it say Mono's can not post here?

My Dear Friend
The tittle of this discussion was " LAVEZZI REEFING LEVELS" so one would like to think that the input required to the discussion would have something to do with how and when to reef on a Lavezzi .
A Lavezzi is a 40' catamaran produced by Fountaine Pajot , I also own a Beneteau First 30' , and I do exchange views and ideas on a different part of this forum as I do not beleive that catamaran owners would be interested in the issues that I have with my windward rudder when on a closed reach.
So let's use common sense and have " HORSE FOR COURSES" .
By the end of the day we all have a common passion , we call it sailing here down under , and we are all sailors , so let's have fun .
Cheers

[downunder]

I think Eleven is a former cat owner and likes to keep in touch.

Cheers

[muskoka]

I think the FP reefing guidelines are a little conservative - I tend to wait a bit longer unless it's extremely gusty. Usually I won't reef until 20 knots of wind, and then is usually just the first reef in the main.

Basically, you don't want to bury the leeward hull too much as then the advantage of more sail is offset by the added drag. We often find that we pick up speed after reefing.

[Dragon Lady]

I think the sea state is also a factor to consider too.

[limejucer]

I was surprised at the coments about 11. He has posted good advice on a number of things.
Here he provides advice on good seamanship. a subject important to all sailors Mono/Cat or Lavezzi.
I value his coments and thank him.
I also thank the other posters as i wish to learn.

Although my Cat isnt a Lavezzi I hope to learn from you otherwise i am wasting all of our time.

[Dragon Lady]

I believe his comments were misunderstood as being critical when they were just questioning.
The joy of using the english language in written form.
I hope we are all friends now.

[Rapanui]

The thing about makers reefing wind speeds is that for multihulls they have to have a margin of safety for gusts. In the past and still today, a significant proportion of capsizes have been when sailing in moderate conditions but have been capsized by an extreme gust, particularly katabatic winds from mountains. So, if the maker proposes 18 kts for the first reef you could certainly exceed it in steady winds, its just that you have reduced the margin of safety for gusts.
As an example, for my Maldives which has a much higher power to weight ratio than recent FP models (I think the makers figure was 18 kts upwind for the first reef). I regularly sailed up to 25 kts and had gusts up to around 35 kts with full sail.
The point is, that the probability of a gust that could capsize the boat increases with the mean wind speed. Even sticking to the manufacturer's reefing speeds there is a very small but finite possibility that a freak gust will come along and wreck your day. The skipper has to judge whether to hang on or reef early because he does not trust the conditions

[Dragon Lady]

Is there any truth in the rumours that earlier FPs have capsized?
As far as I can tell none of the late models have gone over, but there was a post about a Lipari nearly going over.
I think the real concern with reefing is loading up the rig and doing damage to the boat and offcourse the performance gain in unloading the boat so it can remain flat.
Staying flat is good for all boats

[Rapanui]

Dragon Lady,
Several Maldives have been capsized and I have heard of a Tobago going over in the Gulf of Mexico. In the UK the Amateur Yacht Research Society used to publish studies of known capsizes but I haven't kept up. Even the Maldives is very difficult to capsize, it requires considerable abuse or extremely bad luck. Both these were earlier FP designs with a high sail area to weight ratio so that they were fast and responsive, the later FP designs have a much lower ratio which is of course the equivalent of reefing early. In my opinion this was to move the FP destination market to the much larger charter market where capsize are a real turn off to prospective buyers. My Athena is one of the first FP that followed this trend and it is noticeably more like sailing an armchair compared to our ex rather edgy Maldives which could outsail most everything.
It is ironic that such de-tuning of standard boats has led to a proliferation of bowsprits, asymetrics, code 0 and the like to improve performance.
Sail area is of course not the whole story, I would guess that improvements in sail reefing systems particularly headsail furling, spinnaker snuffers and asymetric/code0 furlers have contributed to a better safety record recently.

[Burls]

IMO if you’re ‘cruising’, then reef early and reelaaaax….. If you’re racing (Where you and the crew are paying attention!), then take it to the limit and say ‘woo hoo’ a lot.

[Dragon Lady]

Yeah, the move to the charter market was a good thing for their business.
I love the room and comfort of our Lavezzi, but I do understand where you’re coming from regarding the boat’s performance.
The add ons are an attempt to make up the performance shortfalls.
I’ve been told that the Lavezzi is considered to be one of the better performers in the later model charter style cats, but I really wouldn’t know if that is true.
I’m sure FP is well aware of the liability issues if they were to produce an unstable boat that could capsize so they are staying safe which is fine by me.

[Eleven]

(Cautiously dipping toe into this particular pool)
A lot of discussion coming out now on the trend of modern (mass) manufacturers.
My comment was rather brusque, apologies for that. Later posts have pretty much said what I learned from my Prout, which I took on as a rank beginner. My brother had the Snowgoose, and sailed the indian ocean, came 2nd to a much larger mono in the Madagascar to Durban race, and talked endlessly, and planned dream cats.
From his talks and some reading, I collected my Prout, sailed with a novice as crew on my first trip to my home port. Only ran aground once, well twice really, on that trip.
Better sailing later but it was always a heavy boat, boat speed being about a third of apparent in almost all conditions, but when the wind was fresh she sailed wonderfully.
Never did she make me nervous, and we saw a bit if f7-8 and ten foot confused swell in the busy waters Soton.
Reefing was only occasionally required, mainly for speed management. She looked after me well. I hope your choice does the same for you.
I did suffer from lack of rudder authority and mods by previous owners, but she was thirty years old and looked good for another thirty.
With modern knowledge the FP's should be a lifetime purchase. I wish you well in your dreams and future voyages.