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foolishsailor · 25-04-2012, 10:01

fyi

here are two pfds that i am considering...not cheap

http://www.myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=2365

http://www.myboatsgear.com/mbg/product.asp?prodID=1951

these are for offshore use so not sure if what you had in mind...

Cheechako · 25-04-2012, 10:03

I would say that skipper is not very diligent. Only an idiot would go as far as telling crew NOT to wear a pfd. I would tell them it's their choice, show them where the pfds are and suggest that good swimmers drown all the time....

bazzer · 25-04-2012, 13:04

It was my wife that was told not to wear a auto inflate PFD because they were dangerous. She wore her Spinlock of course, not of the other crew or skipper did. Sure, a auto inflate could cause you a problem if below decks when a boat were swamped, but in any kind of sea that is more than calm, surely you should keep at least one of the companion way boards in and the hatches closed and secured? I do.
The Volvo race skipper is showing a very bad example of boat safety, I certainly would not wish to sail with him.
Oh, I have been a pro sailboat skipper and have sailed a boat up to 65 feet singlehanded with spinnaker etc. so I have had some experience.
Bazzer

sailorboy1 · 25-04-2012, 14:40

I can not believe people are doing the "rules say" game. If YOU feel it is time to put your life vest on don't let anyone stop you! If they say "you can not wear your life vest" response "screw you!!!". Either way you probably are not going to be on that boat again, so everyone is happy!

GeoGoddess · 25-04-2012, 15:13

Thanks to all of you on this timely post. I'm educating myself on what type of PFD to purchase. Currently I mostly sail weekends on a Cal 2-27 and am just starting to sail on 14' dinghies. Going on my first charter to BVI in June and intend to eventually do a lot of coastal and blue water cruising. I understand that PFDs will be provided with the charter boat, but would like to purchase one that could be used across the board - cruising and small boat racing. Your discussion of pros/cons of various features, as well as attitudes has helped guide my research. Bless your salty little hearts.

susanna reiter · 25-04-2012, 15:22

With the competent and informative help from "foolishsailor" and after reviewing the websites he provided...I have to say I am gonna go with the Kru Sport Pro with the hood, harness and crotch strap....I may have to get it shipped from SouthHampton UK but I think its got to be "the kind". Check it out.

bewitched · 25-04-2012, 16:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I can not believe people are doing the "rules say" game.

There has been a lot of thought put into those rules by a lot of very, very experienced sailors and the rules say that the wearing of PFDs is up to the individual.

Not the Skipper. Not the Race Committee.

So when either takes that decision away from the individual, even with the best intentions, they may not necessarily be making the best safety call.

barnakiel · 25-04-2012, 17:26

I would not sail again with this guy.

The skipper is there also to make the crew feel safe.

Read what Mike Golding says on this subject in his chapter of 'Heavy Weather Sailing' - his is an interesting take too!

b.

Cheechako · 26-04-2012, 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoGoddess

Thanks to all of you on this timely post. I'm educating myself on what type of PFD to purchase. Currently I mostly sail weekends on a Cal 2-27 and am just starting to sail on 14' dinghies. Going on my first charter to BVI in June and intend to eventually do a lot of coastal and blue water cruising. I understand that PFDs will be provided with the charter boat, but would like to purchase one that could be used across the board - cruising and small boat racing. Your discussion of pros/cons of various features, as well as attitudes has helped guide my research. Bless your salty little hearts.

an inflatable wont be able to be carried on the airplane I think.... Frankly, I've had a few inflatables. One with a built in harness was nice for ocean crossings... but I have a well worn thin foam one that is soft and comfortable and I prefer it really. Inflatables are one more thing to maintain.... I KNOW foam will float!

rgscpat · 26-04-2012, 09:59

With more deaths, some governments and agencies will feel pressured or empowered to take the decision out of the hands of crew, skippers, or race committees and legislate what they think is safe, whether it makes sense to sailors or not. There are already jurisdictions that do so.

susanna reiter · 26-04-2012, 13:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgscpat

With more deaths, some governments and agencies will feel pressured or empowered to take the decision out of the hands of crew, skippers, or race committees and legislate what they think is safe, whether it makes sense to sailors or not. There are already jurisdictions that do so.

Well "rgscpat" nailed it !!! check out the latest Lattitude 38 "lectronic Latitude. The USCG has just announced an unprecedented cancellation of all ocean raising in the San Francisco area until further investigation and the USCG's consideration and resolution of safety requirements are implemented. Check it out.

Captain Bill · 26-04-2012, 14:23

I would side with the skipper, he did not say wear no pfd, he said don't wear a automaitcally inflating PFD. I see his point if you consider how those things work. They inflate when a water soluble tablet gets wet. These things take almost no water to trigger. In a race crew often get quite wet and sometimes almost submerged. If any of this happens which is actually more likey in a racing situation the pfd will inflate. Of course since you are not actually in the water and don't need your PFD inflated you wiould probably deflate it so you could continue your crew duties. Of course now you are left with a PFD that can only be inflated by the mouth tubes since you've already blown your CO2 cartridge on a needless inflation. If you then go into the water you had better hope you've got enough consciousness and time to find the mouth tubes and blow up the pfd before you have any kind of positive flotation. I know a number of racers and none of them use autoinflaters because they get too wet. Better to have a PFD that only requires a tug on a cord to inflate than a wasted one you have to inflate by mouth.

My 2 cents, change welcome.

MarkSF · 26-04-2012, 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

No worries, this forum is all about exchanging information.

here is just one of the latest deaths that upon investigation was clearly directly tied to an auto inflate PFD

Investigation complete: Chicago to Mackinac race deaths : News : UpNorthLive.com

you can google yourself to find PLENTY more.

I personally prefer autoinflate as I would be more concerned with cold water shock or a head injusry than I am with being trapped by the autoinflate...however if you have read the latest reviews of pfd's - if you dont have a hood and a proper crotch strap - you are still as good as dead in any conditions worse than force 5...

...regarding the OP's real question - which i didnt get till now...

...If a crew countered a decision that was safety based I would take them to the nearest Pier and drop them off, even at the expense of a loss should I be racing.

...however it is also the crews responsibility, if they feel unsafe to demand to be dropped off if they feel the skipper is requiring them to do something they are not comfortable with.

edit: To be honest, after reading about 7 articles on auto inflate PFD's they all talk about "near" deaths attributable to PFD's. And situations where if a person HAD been wearing one they would likely have died...however I cant find any evidence that someones death was attributable to an autoinflate PFD...

Yes the report just says that the autoinflate pfds COULD have caused deaths under different circumstances. The two deaths were due to blunt force trauma.

I read the testimony from the survivor of the recent Farallones accident, and he was quite clear that the inflatable PFD saved his life. He didn't have a crotch strap and said that one would have been better, but the pfd still worked without.

I guess you have to consider the most likely scenario. For me, day sailing around SF bay, the most likely accident is falling off the boat, untethered. Maybe unconscious as the boom just knocked them overboard after an accidental gybe. An autoinflate is ideal.

I think the skipper here did the right thing. Expressed his concerns, but not permitting a crew member to wear a safety device they want to wear is unreasonable.

**sarafina** · 26-04-2012, 14:59

I'm crewing for a bay charter tomorrow.

If I showed up and the Captain said "no inflatable pdf's because they were dangerous" I would request an alternative option or would ignore her and fulfill my obligation that day. Unless I felt there was clear and present danger sailing I wouldn't leave someone in the lurch after I had committed to help.

But I would never sail with her again because I do not sail with idiots. Or at least not more than once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by foolishsailor

Here is just one of the latest deaths that upon investigation was clearly directly tied to an auto inflate PFD

Investigation complete: Chicago to Mackinac race deaths : News : UpNorthLive.com

I would be pretty confident that far more have drowned not wearing ANYTHING ; -)