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Old 13-02-2012, 21:36   #16
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Dave will be all over this but I would advice to just get rid of any components that are stupid enough to not allow operation based on simple GPS PGN's or to select a source with others functioning as backups. I would go so far to call those components deeply flawed and not fit for use on N2K.

Replace that X30 abomination with a Simrad-Robertson pilot (old drive can stay if wanted) and problems get solved.

I do not agree that 0183 is a safer or less complicated solution. It is a fix for old and/or flawed components. If you are stuck with incompatible hardware then it can quickly become very messy.

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Old 14-02-2012, 06:21   #17
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
Originally Posted by David M View Post
It seems there are a lot more compatibility problems with NMEA 2000 than with NMEA 0183.
That sentence would be more accurate if it read "It seems there are a lot more compatibility problems with Raymarine than with any other manufacturer".

Raymarine has always been a huge PITA working with others. From way back to now. It barely worked with 0183 and used proprietary communications with it. It has continued through to now, but I think they have seen the light with their new stuff. Only time will tell on that, but their history is not promising.

Your opinion on N2K compatibility is not representative of my experience. We just installed a VERY mixed component N2k system and it works flawlessly, and did so the moment we flipped the power switch.

However, there are no Raymarine components in the system. I was very specific about that when putting it together for the reasons listed in this thread. Well, there is one RM component - the linear drive, but that is a pure mechanical beast and doesn't communicate with anything.

Mark
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Old 14-02-2012, 06:44   #18
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

This is not to be taken as defending RM, but I will point out that their AP Corepacks are NOT on the NMEA's list of N2k certified products. Plus RM doesn't advertise them as N2k certified. They do state in their installation manual:

Quote:
SeaTalkng is a proprietary extension to NMEA 2000 and the proven CAN bus technology. Compatible NMEA 2000 and SeaTalk / SeaTalk2 devices can also be connected using the appropriate interfaces or adaptor cables as required.
These weasel words *could* be construed by an unsuspecting soul as compatible with NMEA 2000. But the fact remains that RM hides behind this by simply stating what you are trying to accomplish is not compatible with their products.

I take exception to their use of the word "extension". How can they extend something that falls short of meeting the specs in the first place?
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Old 14-02-2012, 07:52   #19
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Nick, I wish I could ditch the Raymarine corepack and ST70 controller, but my resources are not unlimited and it wasn't cheap.

And while I appreciate the lively debate on the merits of NMEA0183/2000/STng I still seek a way for the autopilot to play well with the other NMEA2000 components.

I have found that the X-30 corepack will only track off of a standalone chart plotter and will only accept NMEA0183 sentences. Maybe a NMEA2000 to 0183 converter? The ST70 will receive and display NMEA2000 data but does not use it for navigation. I might be able to use NMEA2000 data for tracking based on apparent wind, but that is about it, and no promises from RM on that.

And thanks to all for your insights so far. The CF has provided a wealth of information on the subject.
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Old 14-02-2012, 07:57   #20
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
Originally Posted by DotDun View Post
........ Plus RM doesn't advertise them as N2k certified.......
?
DotDun, not to take exception, and it dosen't really matter at this point, but this is taken directly from there website:

"The SmartPilot X-30 also offers the convenience of rudder reference-less operation as well as data connections for SeaTalk, SeaTalkNG, NMEA 0183 and NMEA 2000 giving the SmartPilot X-30 unprecedented connectivity."

Guess the rule "don't believe everything you read" applies here.
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Old 14-02-2012, 09:24   #21
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Quote:
My guess is that the X30 prioritizes the STng over 0183 and when it see a GPS on the STng it stops listening to the 0183.

Out of curiosity, have you tried stopping OpenCPN from sending RMC? My thought is there is a small chance the X30 is getting confused because it sees GPS info on both interfaces (RMC includes GPS data), but this is a long shot.

I assume you have your Actisense updated to the latest firmware version (2.197)? I haven't tested this with my X10, but it is on my to-do list. Actisense has just recently been working the bugs out of converting nav data from 0183 to N2k, so it may or may not work. While testing this I would completely disconnect the 0183 from the X30.
Using NAVMONPC to steer the messages to different ports, I have tried all combinations of RMB and RMC on 0183 and 2k including disconnecting. Using an Actisense NGT-1 and NMEAREADER, I can monitor all the PGNs on the bus. Nothing jumps out at me.

The latest firmware (2.197) did fix some problems with the NGW-1, but still no joy.

The Maretron GPS200 sends 129025/6 PGNs at 5 times per second. Perhaps that's an issue.

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Old 14-02-2012, 10:27   #22
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Using NAVMONPC to steer the messages to different ports, I have tried all combinations of RMB and RMC on 0183 and 2k including disconnecting. Using an Actisense NGT-1 and NMEAREADER, I can monitor all the PGNs on the bus. Nothing jumps out at me.

The latest firmware (2.197) did fix some problems with the NGW-1, but still no joy.

The Maretron GPS200 sends 129025/6 PGNs at 5 times per second. Perhaps that's an issue.

Chuck
1) I don't have an X30 to test with, but I do have an X10. It may be a mistake to *assume* the software is similar between these 2 units. My X10 is connected ONLY to the STng (N2k).

2) Since day one of my setup (late 2008 timeframe), the X10 accepted nav data from the Furuno via N2k. When installed, this was the criteria or it would have been different equipment.

3) My CP is a Furuno NavNet3D connected to the N2k network. The GPS is also on the N2k network (I've used both the Furuno 330 and Airmar G2183 successfully). For testing purposes, I once removed the GPS from N2k and connected the CP to a 0183 GPS. The X10 refused to go into track mode and threw a 'no speed data' error. When I enable the CP to repeat GPS data to the N2k, the X10 once again accepted track mode. Hence my conclusion that the X10 requires SOG data from a GPS. (Both the Furuno and Airmar GPS produce position data @ 10hz, the X10 doesn't have a problem with this.)

4) I've played with both MacENC and OpenCPN on 0183 using the Actisense NGW-1 gateway to the N2k. I've never had success in getting the X10 to accept nav data from this setup. My next step is to perform a detail analysis of the difference in the packets from the CP and the Actisense. Another thought I have is the X10 may 'lock onto' a source for nav data and not let go without performing a 'reset'. (Nick experienced this same phenomenon with his Robertson AP).

YMMV
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Old 14-02-2012, 11:13   #23
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

DotDun

Thank you very much for your information. Combining your experience with my observations leads me to conclude (at least for now) that the X30 cannot accept nav data from both 0183 and N2k at the same time. And also that using an Actisense NGW-1 for nav data does not work. I wish I had an N2k CP to test with. I would be interested in your analysis of the difference in packets from the CP and the Actisense.
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Old 14-02-2012, 17:48   #24
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

I must be snoozing but what is a "CP" ?

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Old 14-02-2012, 17:50   #25
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Chart plotter
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Old 14-02-2012, 17:58   #26
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

For someone evaluating various systems for future installation its seems Raymarine should be avoided at present.
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Old 14-02-2012, 18:02   #27
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by ChuckSK View Post
Chart plotter
Okay, I don't get it then... so this CP does not have that Seatalk-ng port? If not, then it all ends there I think, because I would have no hope of using converters to make it happen. The converters don't really like to convert 0183 data into PGNs that send nav data to AP's. I got that to work with the Maretron USB100 gateway and MaxSea. But MaxSea allowed me to configure which 0183 sentences to send for the AP so I could match that with the data wanted by the USB100 to do the conversion. You don't have that luxury with that RM CP I think..

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Old 14-02-2012, 18:07   #28
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

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Originally Posted by downunder View Post
For someone evaluating various systems for future installation its seems Raymarine should be avoided at present.
I don't know if the RM systems discussed are the latest generation? If there are newer versions then those might work well.

What I am sure of: for sensors, Maretron and Airmar have everything and they are the thing to get. Many sensors from other brands are actually from Airmar (transducers mainly).

Then I know that Furuno and Simrad play ball. Even my old Simrad/Robertson AP, which still has RobNet connectors next to the SimNet connectors, works 100% on N2K, an amazing feat.

The Furuno does not accept AIS data from N2K.

I believe the new B&G displays and the Garmin gear also supports N2K but owners should acknowledge that.

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Old 14-02-2012, 18:17   #29
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Despite Nicks comments , I m not a fanboy for Raymarine, I have used its equipment all over the places on countless boats, as it had certainly till recently in Europe almost complete dominance of the production boat market. Thats of course is changing.

If the OP is suggesting using the X-30 with 2K transducers from non ray marine sources I would stay away from that unless you can transpose it into 0183 so as to control what is sent to it, There is no guarantee that the X-30 can handle any non Raymarine PGNs.

The X-30 can of course sit on a nmea2k backbone ( that called seatalkng),its the PGNs compatibility thats a problem.

Raymarine is in a transition away from a multiple of communication systems, 0183, seatalk seatalk2 seatalkhs, seatalkng.

At present if you want to use Raymarine on a pure N2K network, you can only really use product where they publish PGN data, which they are doing. Your fairly safe with E-& C-wide series, ST70+, and of course the new series of MFDs and instruments.

I would say this problem is not unique to Raymarine, many other s inkling Garmin , Simrad and Furuno have specific issues, multiple source selection has caused problems all over the place and PGN compatibility is an issue, see Panbo for several illuminating blogs on the subject including the output of Bens Panbo Lab.

Its improving all the time and in the case of Ray marine, They are releasing new products improving the situation all the time, A refresh of the Autopilots can't be far away.

Right now I am a fanboy for Simrad/B&G/Navico way out in front at the moment.

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Old 14-02-2012, 18:21   #30
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Re: NMEA 2000 and Raymarine

Nick

I probably muddled things up. Currently my nav system consists of OpenCPN on a laptop sending nav data to the X-30 nmea 0183 port. The ST70 is connected to the X-30 with STng. There is no chart-plotter on the STng bus.

In an effort to get the Maretron GPS200 working on the STng bus I was trying to send OpenCPN nav data to the X-30 via the Actisense gateway and STng. This in an effort to avoid simultaneous nmea 0183 and STng nav data.

Unmuddled?

Chuck
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