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Old 22-01-2016, 13:33   #166
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I am not wanting to step on anyone's toes here, and I feel some concern that this input will be unwelcome to some, what I'm asking for here, is for some of you to put yourself in the "other guy"'s position.

What this situation was not, apparently was mom & Dad or just Mom or Dad cruiser, taking on crew, and that is what I want to address here, because there are a number of folks who use CF to either find crew or be crew for someone else.. It is not a professional crewing situation, either.

When you look at Dr. Sea's story--and thank you for telling it, and the conclusions you reached--realize how fortunate he was to not go to sea with that skipper! Crewing for unknown skippers can produce poor outcomes, and here's a few, from people we've met. One, a young man, signed on in Panama, keen for adventure, with an older man skipper. The crew was swimming out to the cruisers in Taiohae [skipper denied permission to use dinghy], begging for a ride to Papeete, because the skipper fed him inadequately and beat him often. A young woman, crew for an unscrupulous man skipper, was not given her passport back so that she could leave the ship. [This is so cruel, in an age when the prudent skipper (cruiser) should keep the passports and the bonds.] As it happened, this particular skipper had damaged another boat in Atuona, and the police were involved in Papeete, and so, the young woman got her passport back. Then, the alcoholic skipper--way scary. How about the guy who kept trying to force sex with his sole female crew. She finally got him to control himself by throwing winch handles overboard. Arrived in Hawaii with one. The lesson here, is that crewing can be dangerous, one way and
another. I have a great deal of sympathy for crew who are abused by skippers.

On the other hand, the stories from the other side of the cabin, of cruising couples or sometime singlehanders who try taking on crew are sometimes okay, sometimes not. Friends took on a guy who needed to get back to Australia out of sympathy. The guy hid his booze, got drunk every night, and would not keep the boat on course, going wherever he wanted to. They tried to reason with him, but it did not work. A harrowing trip where they had to babysit him so as to make their desired landfall. One single woman skipper has mentioned here on CF having a crew who did destructive things on the boat. Imagine having your home [that you worked hard for and saved long, maybe living like a starving graduate student for years to have] damaged by someone to whom you're giving a treasured experience, you've bought and outfitted the boat. You're not a tour guide, but you're wanting to share something you value, and they s**t on your gift. While the potential crew may think they'll be a valuable addition for the skipper, in fact, the skipper may look on you as a potential burden, and certainly will want you to be fit to provide the labor that is his payoff for allowing you to share. This is pretty much my background, and it applies mainly to help for passages.

There are other, coastal or day trip types where people just invite someone to come along for the day, or trip, with little expectations other than the other guy enjoy himself. I got my start sailing being crew for people who wanted a hand, and it was all informal and fun. However, guest/crew, have no rights, only privileges, and become crew already having some acquaintance with the skipper, even if it is only that your friend says he or she is a nice person. They have a reasonable expectation of being treated well. If you can have at least one daysail with a person, you'll have a much better idea of how they are both as crew and as skipper.

Now, we are seeing people who expect monetary remuneration from crew, and frankly, it puts unnecessary burdens on the skippers, and sometimes, legal ones of which they're unaware. To me, it muddies all the ethical issues, as well. I do know of one case where a guy with a boat was taking out backpackers for day trips for money, in direct competition with local skippers. Funny thing, he was dissuaded from the practice by those professionals, and it wasn't pretty. So, be aware that you may be jeopardizing someone else's rice bowl by taking on paying guests, and it may have unintended consequences.

So how does this applies to DreaminFred? it seems to me, it was Boatman61 who pointed out that DreaminFred was going to be part of a delivery crew. A situation where a skipper who is responsible for, but is not the owner of the boat was going to exchange the experience of the voyage for the labor of the guest. Boatie and MuckleFlugga have emphasized how important trust between skipper and crew is. Lizzy wrote that she sure as s**t would reserve the right to not accept crew for any reason whatsoever. And I think that's reasonable. The moment that DF showed himself to not be trustworthy, that had to be the end of him as crew, and that is why so many people have said that he should have been up front about his [mysterious] condition. That was the only way he had to show himself to be trustworthy. I think it is one's own responsibility to be forthcoming, and if you are not, you accept the consequences. It was DF's decision to make all those arrangements, and I believe he made them in good faith, whether wisely or not. He thought he was "on" as crew. He may not have realized that the skipper would still have the right to refuse him, but if you want to crew, remember it, and include it in your planning.

Informal situations are different from paid charters. Your labor isn't worth that much, you have no rights, only a reasonable expectation of being treated humanely. So as potential crew, you will need to look after your interests as best you can, and it may work out just fine...and it may not. Being crew for strangers is risky, and that includes the risk of being knocked back at the last moment, and the hit to your finances is really irrelevant to the skipper who realizes you are unsuitable.

Ann

With all that said, I still think the greater risk is for the skipper.
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Old 22-01-2016, 13:37   #167
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Boatman u always cracking me up man.. Between you and Zeehag...I am rolling...
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Old 22-01-2016, 13:48   #168
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Boatman u always cracking me up man.. Between you and Zeehag...I am rolling...

Yes, he usually cuts right to the crux of the matter.
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Old 22-01-2016, 13:53   #169
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Ann Cate, you are one squared away chic. Love to read your logical and well thought out civil replies. God bless you and Jim.
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Old 22-01-2016, 13:55   #170
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

BTW, before heading off to earn the legal tender...this has been one heck 'uv a thread.


Isn't it a pity we don't get to know exactly what the medical issue is or why the captain aborted?
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Old 22-01-2016, 13:56   #171
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
I think I've already posted my answer in this topic No point in re-posting my earlier posts.
You and I.
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Old 22-01-2016, 13:56   #172
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

The "skipper" is the owner of the vessel. It was not a "delivery" just a hopefully quick run to the VI.
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:00   #173
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

OK I skipped a bunch of pages in the middle, but has anyone heard what the particular illness is yet?
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:03   #174
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

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Originally Posted by Cadence View Post
You and I.
*blush*

Quote:
Originally Posted by MBWhite View Post
OK I skipped a bunch of pages in the middle, but has anyone heard what the particular illness is yet?
See 3rd post above yours
Nope, the OP went quiet ...

Edit: he's free not to share information like that - it's a public forum after all.
But he should have mentioned in his 1st post that 'a medical issue' was the reason the skipper changed his mind. Methinks, anyway.
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:20   #175
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

If you make an offer and somebody accepts it and spends air fare and hotel to report you are responsible. Either you believe this poster is both lying and and an idiot to fly in without a clear understanding or you believe him. I see no reason for his post to be a lie. Of course, the captain is free to change his mind and withdraw the offer. That is his absolute right. My point was that he owes full reimburse of travel expences to the rejected crewman unless the prospect lied on the phone about something material like age, physical condition, having a passport, etc. If the guy has prison tats or just looked shady reject him, sure. But leave him financially whole.
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:22   #176
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pirate Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boatguy30 View Post
The "skipper" is the owner of the vessel. It was not a "delivery" just a hopefully quick run to the VI.
I know...!!
Just felt like a whinge..
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:27   #177
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave22q View Post
If you make an offer and somebody accepts it and spends air fare and hotel to report you are responsible.
Oh?
More often then not, crew is expected to pay for their travel costs to and from the boat.
Do you know what they agreed on before the OP bought his ticket?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave22q View Post
unless the prospect lied // physical condition.
Have you read more then the first post in this topic?
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:30   #178
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post
I am not wanting to step on anyone's toes here, and I feel some concern that this input will be unwelcome to some, what I'm asking for here, is for some of you to put yourself in the "other guy"'s position.

What this situation was not, apparently was mom & Dad or just Mom or Dad cruiser, taking on crew, and that is what I want to address here, because there are a number of folks who use CF to either find crew or be crew for someone else.. It is not a professional crewing situation, either.

When you look at Dr. Sea's story--and thank you for telling it, and the conclusions you reached--realize how fortunate he was to not go to sea with that skipper! Crewing for unknown skippers can produce poor outcomes, and here's a few, from people we've met. One, a young man, signed on in Panama, keen for adventure, with an older man skipper. The crew was swimming out to the cruisers in Taiohae [skipper denied permission to use dinghy], begging for a ride to Papeete, because the skipper fed him inadequately and beat him often. A young woman, crew for an unscrupulous man skipper, was not given her passport back so that she could leave the ship. [This is so cruel, in an age when the prudent skipper (cruiser) should keep the passports and the bonds.] As it happened, this particular skipper had damaged another boat in Atuona, and the police were involved in Papeete, and so, the young woman got her passport back. Then, the alcoholic skipper--way scary. How about the guy who kept trying to force sex with his sole female crew. She finally got him to control himself by throwing winch handles overboard. Arrived in Hawaii with one. The lesson here, is that crewing can be dangerous, one way and
another. I have a great deal of sympathy for crew who are abused by skippers.

On the other hand, the stories from the other side of the cabin, of cruising couples or sometime singlehanders who try taking on crew are sometimes okay, sometimes not. Friends took on a guy who needed to get back to Australia out of sympathy. The guy hid his booze, got drunk every night, and would not keep the boat on course, going wherever he wanted to. They tried to reason with him, but it did not work. A harrowing trip where they had to babysit him so as to make their desired landfall. One single woman skipper has mentioned here on CF having a crew who did destructive things on the boat. Imagine having your home [that you worked hard for and saved long, maybe living like a starving graduate student for years to have] damaged by someone to whom you're giving a treasured experience, you've bought and outfitted the boat. You're not a tour guide, but you're wanting to share something you value, and they s**t on your gift. While the potential crew may think they'll be a valuable addition for the skipper, in fact, the skipper may look on you as a potential burden, and certainly will want you to be fit to provide the labor that is his payoff for allowing you to share. This is pretty much my background, and it applies mainly to help for passages.

There are other, coastal or day trip types where people just invite someone to come along for the day, or trip, with little expectations other than the other guy enjoy himself. I got my start sailing being crew for people who wanted a hand, and it was all informal and fun. However, guest/crew, have no rights, only privileges, and become crew already having some acquaintance with the skipper, even if it is only that your friend says he or she is a nice person. They have a reasonable expectation of being treated well. If you can have at least one daysail with a person, you'll have a much better idea of how they are both as crew and as skipper.

Now, we are seeing people who expect monetary remuneration from crew, and frankly, it puts unnecessary burdens on the skippers, and sometimes, legal ones of which they're unaware. To me, it muddies all the ethical issues, as well. I do know of one case where a guy with a boat was taking out backpackers for day trips for money, in direct competition with local skippers. Funny thing, he was dissuaded from the practice by those professionals, and it wasn't pretty. So, be aware that you may be jeopardizing someone else's rice bowl by taking on paying guests, and it may have unintended consequences.

So how does this applies to DreaminFred? it seems to me, it was Boatman61 who pointed out that DreaminFred was going to be part of a delivery crew. A situation where a skipper who is responsible for, but is not the owner of the boat was going to exchange the experience of the voyage for the labor of the guest. Boatie and MuckleFlugga have emphasized how important trust between skipper and crew is. Lizzy wrote that she sure as s**t would reserve the right to not accept crew for any reason whatsoever. And I think that's reasonable. The moment that DF showed himself to not be trustworthy, that had to be the end of him as crew, and that is why so many people have said that he should have been up front about his [mysterious] condition. That was the only way he had to show himself to be trustworthy. I think it is one's own responsibility to be forthcoming, and if you are not, you accept the consequences. It was DF's decision to make all those arrangements, and I believe he made them in good faith, whether wisely or not. He thought he was "on" as crew. He may not have realized that the skipper would still have the right to refuse him, but if you want to crew, remember it, and include it in your planning.

Informal situations are different from paid charters. Your labor isn't worth that much, you have no rights, only a reasonable expectation of being treated humanely. So as potential crew, you will need to look after your interests as best you can, and it may work out just fine...and it may not. Being crew for strangers is risky, and that includes the risk of being knocked back at the last moment, and the hit to your finances is really irrelevant to the skipper who realizes you are unsuitable.

Ann

With all that said, I still think the greater risk is for the skipper.
Excellent summation, Ann. Thank you.
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Old 22-01-2016, 14:54   #179
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

We had excellent luck getting great crew through the SSCA's bulletin boards. folks regularly post crew wanted/crew available. Second best was Latitude 38's meet and greet parties for those looking for crew/skippers.
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Old 22-01-2016, 15:05   #180
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Re: What's a skipper's obligation to voluntary crew?

I second that
Quote:
Originally Posted by alansmith View Post
Ann Cate, you are one squared away chic. Love to read your logical and well thought out civil replies. God bless you and Jim.

My work puts me in a slightly different mind set (maybe ) to some here
As a freelance charter skip, ( fairly new to the game ) I get what ever ( bare) boat I am given but more importantly which ever guest / crew to !

At the end of the day as long as a guest / crew is happy to get a mooring on board , heave a line or push a button on an anchor winch, I am happy, it's a bit like single handing but with the hassle of putting the guests first !

Sometimes things are easier done by yourself !
The disadvantage is that my crew pay thousands of dollars to please themselves as to whether they help or not, so I find myself quizzing them heavily on there expectation of the time on board and how involved they want to be.
Some times I am just a confidence booster and they become the person making the decisions, but ultimately I am the person who is responsible for the yacht and there safety and I might add... A contract is signed accordingly
I do have the advantage of never being more than a day from a port, so it's more like a day charter, but living with them 24/7.
What I am trying to say .... Is that as Ann so eloquently wrote.... There are good and bad on both sides... But an agreement of expectations is what makes life run smoothly



Sent from my iPad.......i apologise for the auto corrects !!!
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