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Old 23-07-2013, 06:38   #181
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
I don't beleive its the case for IMO EPIRBs
You are right again!
After brief search I found the following at
C/S T.000 Series - Technical

While not conclusive either way, it does confirm Dave's post regarding IMO GMDSS requirements but it hasn't resolved the Tx time for non IMO GMDSS units except to state the minimum time which is 24 hours



SPECIFICATION FOR COSPAS-SARSAT 406 MHz DISTRESS BEACONS
C/S T.001 Issue 3 Revision 13 October 2012
..
2.3.2 Transmitter Power Output
The transmitter power output shall be within the limits of 5 W + 2 dB (35 to 39 dBm) measured into a 50-Ohm load. This power output shall be maintained during 24-hour operation at any temperature throughout the specified operating temperature range.
...

and

4.5.1 Duration of Continuous Operation
The minimum duration of continuous operation shall be at least 24 hours* at any temperature throughout the specified operating temperature range. This characteristic shall be permanently marked on the beacon.

* For installations meeting IMO GMDSS requirements, a minimum operating lifetime of 48 hours at any
temperature throughout the specified operating temperature range is necessary.
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Old 23-07-2013, 07:04   #182
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

The 121 has been taken off line, Even tho they still pick up its signal,
It was either earlier this year or last year that 121.5 was discontinued,

They only use 406 now,
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Old 23-07-2013, 07:09   #183
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

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The 121 has been taken off line, Even tho they still pick up its signal,
It was either earlier this year or last year that 121.5 was discontinued,

They only use 406 now,
as far as the primary signal...ALL CURRENT EPIRB type devices still transmit on 121.5 as a homing signal...

After several posts with tech info supporting the seemingly knowledgeable posters comments and plenty of info on the net...it's REALLY hard to understand how something so critical to safety at sea (if you are gonna buy and use one)...can be so misunderstood.

http://epirb-warehouse.com/types-of-EPIRBs

November 3, 2000, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (NOAA) announced that satellite processing 121.5/243 MHz emergency beacons will be terminated on February 1, 2009. Class A and B EPIRBs must be phased out by that date. The U.S. Coast Guard no longer recommends these EPIRBs be purchased.
As part of the United States efforts to prepare beacon users for the end of 121.5 MHz frequency processing by satellites, the FCC has prohibited the use of 121.5 MHz EPIRBs as of January 1, 2007 (47 CFR 80.1053, .1055, and .1059)
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Old 23-07-2013, 07:57   #184
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

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Good info Mark. I bought AIS to keep from being surprised by some of the BIG guys who creeped up on me on occasion. With Orbcomm it seems it is another tool to be used in a desperate rescue situation. IMO AIS is cheap insurance and also useful tool in day to day cruising too. Unlike an EPIRB and better than SPOT.

BTW I also like your idea of switching the AIS and VHF antennas for extended range.
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Old 23-07-2013, 08:21   #185
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pirate Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

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Having just read this thread for the first time today I'm in complete agreement with you. The macho bravado of those hardy souls who wouldn't consider "pushing the button until they where clinging to the top of the mast" have never been involved with a SAR situation. I wish their passengers and loved ones well.
Having been involved from both sides of the SAR situation... I don't advocate top of the mast... but I do know that until the boat is deemed beyond hope its the safest place to be.. either waiting outa the weather or for rescue... and if your not sinking why hit the button.
I got caught in a gale that could have sunk the Catalac I was in... she split her undersides on some flotsam... by the time we realised water was ankle deep over the hull floors.
Did a Pan Pan to put the Spanish SAR on standby in case we had to abandon... but we managed to make it in unassisted.
Dunno about you but having been on both sides I'm more aware of what I'm asking someone to do when they have to come out coz I stuffed up.. if I can last till conditions have improved for a 'safer rescue' I will...
nothing macho there mate..
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Old 23-07-2013, 09:04   #186
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Boatie's absolutely right. If you wait for conditions to ameliorate, it'll be easier on both of yez.

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Old 23-07-2013, 09:20   #187
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Can't say for all situations...but for most it's better for the SAR guys to have a fixed wing on top with your location and status...if they need to drop you something they can..especially important is comms gear which in the USAthey drop all the time.

Whether you summon them by EPIRB, VHF, SSB, SPOT or carrier pidgeon...it doesn't matter...they fact that someone knows where you are and can communicate with you is paramount.

Anything less is not fair to the SAR guys let alone people who might care and notify their politicians who will make everyone's life miserable.

It's neither macho or weak to have the ball rolling if you need it....if you don't then it's all on you and live with the consequences.....

Believe me...I don't like to depend on anyone as they often let you down...but worldwide SAR services are pretty good at applying the right amount at the right time....people that say you have to abandon ship when you don't need/want to just because you notified SAR resources...well after 35 years of being on top of the business I'll just have to lay the blame on the skipper for not coordinating the effort in his/her best interest. Good skippers don't have that problem in the vast majority of cases.
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Old 23-07-2013, 21:33   #188
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Sorry if I am beating a dead horse here...

A lot of SAR aircraft are equipped with 121.5 MHz homing equipment but didn't or don't have 406 homers. Retrofitting aircraft to new equipment is actually very difficult, slow and expensive. Even though the 121.5 frequency isn't actively supported, the old 121.5 Mhz transmit frequency was retained for this reason on the 406 epirbs. I am not sure if the 121.5 freq is still operational with every 406 epirb, but it is there on my McMurdo epirb which is only about a year old.
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Old 23-07-2013, 21:56   #189
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Many aircraft monitor guard frequency - 121.5 - whilst en route. I know that for many years for instance it was SOP for Qantas and I believe that it still is.

In addition many light aircraft pilots also monitor guard. Some of us were also taught to switch to guard again briefly before engine shut down to ensure that _our own_ ELT (the aviation equivalent of an EPIRB) is not transmitting before shut down.

So whilst 121.5 is not supported by the COSPAS-SARSAT system and is mainly included for short range homing, it is also monitored in other ways. A beacon on 121.5 is an unmistakeable sound.
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Old 23-07-2013, 23:07   #190
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Google, AMSA, Epirbs, or Epirb Regulations in Australia,

Its the Australian Govt Requirements, It also covers NZ as well,

Most of the Marine Safety Regs between the two Countrys are Identical and apply in both Countrys,

It covers Amsat, Epirbs, PLP's,

Also the dates when 161 went out,

I tried to upload it, But it was an invalid file,

I had two Epirbs on Board, An American one and an Australian one, Both had GPS and ran for a minimum of 48 hours, with a six year battery guarantee, The battery must be replaced every four years. ( I think,) I am probably wrong on that one,

Both were Registered, One to the P/O, USA. and one to me, OZ,

They are different, One has an American Number, Which cannot be registered in Australia,
only in the USA,
Mine has an Australian number, It cant be registered in the USA,

Both work worldwide, I read some where that it had a 12 mile GPS radius when set off,

Registration means you have two people minimum, Next of Kin usually, Not in the same place, That can vouch for you in case you are lost at sea, Or still sitting in your lounge room, and the Epirb has gone off,

Stepping off the top of the mast is a bit of an excageration, But it does get the message across,

My boat is 12 metres below the surface when the mast goes under, I will be a long way, away from it by then,
But I have plans to keep the boat on the surface at all costs, Very simply with quick blow up air bags,

If the Nina turned turtle, Upside down, Could it right itself, Would it still float on the surface upside down, Thats one big hole full of air, Rolling quickly, The air would be trapped inside,

Turning upside down, It could have dumped the anchor chain, out of the locker, Maybe catching on the mast or rigging keeping the boat from righting itself,

Upside down in a very dark or black interior of a boat, in utter chaos, Half submerged, Would be quite frightening, even for the toughest of sailors,
You would have injured passengers, People off their heads, Screaming, trying to get out, Panic,

Would you hazard your life, swimming out amongst the rigging, ropes etc, dangling everywhere, under water,
In maybe rough sea's,

If the water is not rising in the hull, its safer to stay inside it, When the weather is calm, then try to swim out, Thats a very big shark there, We might just stay inside,

This one is very Hypothetical,
Being in the dark, Did they set of the Epirb, and it has floated to the top of the water inside the hull, and they havent noticed it,
Inside the hull, there are no transmissions, The signal does not get out, even if its switched on,
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Old 24-07-2013, 01:18   #191
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr B View Post
[...]
This one is very Hypothetical,
Being in the dark, Did they set of the Epirb, and it has floated to the top of the water inside the hull, and they havent noticed it,
Inside the hull, there are no transmissions, The signal does not get out, even if its switched on,
Hypothetical to be sure, but sometimes the signal does propagate through the hull.

I once had a PLB go off in the cabin by accident. It was stuffed inside my inflatable life jacket, which was under my piled up foul weather gear in the quarter berth. Somehow the PLB had been damaged and it triggered itself. The signal went through the life jacket, the damp foul weather gear, and the deck, and was detected by one of the satellites. I got a satphone call from the U.S. Coast Guard to see if we were OK.

Once I figured out which PLB or EPIRB was active (the USCG gave me the ID code of the PLB), I was able to stop the signal by wrapping the PLB in aluminum foil. The USCG confirmed, via email, that on the next satellite pass the signal had vanished.

A thick wooden hull would probably attenuate the EPIRB signal more than my fiberglass / plywood deck did, but you never know...
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Old 24-07-2013, 01:39   #192
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

These are only my thoughts,
A car gets a flat tyre, Big deal, Pull over to the side of the road and fix it, No Danger,

Your boat gets a hole in its bottom, Your instantly in Great Danger, especially 40 miles out to sea, and beyond,

It doesnt matter how well you are prepared, There are things that go wrong, Unforeseen things,

Your looking at possibly a minimum of four hours in the ocean before you could get rescued from setting off your Epirb,

Help is not coming in any hurry for you,
The Rescue Service has all the stops out to find and get you, But that takes quite a bit of time,

Can you keep your boat afloat for that long,

I still think they are out there,
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Old 25-07-2013, 18:59   #193
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Have you read the latest posts on the Nina thread ? Talk about crazy? Seems our armchair sailors know more than the NZ SAR. Just when will one of them come to the realization that Nina and her crew are most certainly lost. IMHO the boat should have never left of a open ocean voyage in the winter in the first place. I most certainly would not have left in any small boat. But who am I to judge? I've only got sixty years of sailing experience.
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Old 25-07-2013, 19:57   #194
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

What do I fail to understand about weather in the mid lattitudes, if anything, that would allow a boat under bare poles, or a jury rig, or no rig at all, or for that matter a raft, drift/move west. Prevailing winds are from west to east at these lattitudes. I've never heard of a jury rig that would go to windward, let alone bare poles, or a raft. Has anyone here ever heard of a boat going both against the prevailing wind and the prevailing current with anything but an intact rig? My assessment is that if the wreakage or raft missed NZ then it's on its way to South America. Though I've never been to NZ my underatanding is the coast can be a rough place to come ashore and there are long stretches of desolate hard to reach coast line that would be difficult to search.
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Old 25-07-2013, 20:16   #195
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Re: The (Official) "Lets Bash the Nina Thread" - sponsored by Bazzer :-)

I don't think you really know anything about the weather in NZ or the Tasman Sea.

Sailing in the Tasman is never easy and not for the feint of heart. There is a reason Kiwi's are great sailors.

In the summer months you can get cyclones coming down from the tropics. You must leave in the shoulder months in early spring or late fall to avoid them. April, May or June is normal for departure from NZ to either the tropics or to Aus. Many people think leaving in April is too early. Cyclone season ran late this year and there were two tropical depressions in late April. June weather ended up being terrible.

All you can do is try to pick a good month a good forecast and go. The storm that hit Nina formed very fast and moved very fast. It could have happened to anybody.
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