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Old 27-04-2015, 07:14   #1
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Quality claims handling

Hi,

I’ve noticed on many threads how people discuss how the repaired and solved things which I believe should have been on manufacturer’s warranty.

What would the interest be in rant about Quality, Quality Claims, Root cause analysis and the benefits for both the customer as well as the manufacturer to treat customer claims correctly?

/Magnus
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Old 27-04-2015, 08:20   #2
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Re: Quality claims handling

Hi Magnus. Customer service means a lot of different things to a lot of different people across the globe. For example, in Australia I believe we generally have excellent customer service, especially when dealing with government agencies, but also in most large businesses. My limited experience with the UK is that they have similar service quality to Australia. Of course there will always be some bad apples, but in general you do t have to file a law suite to get problems resolved. Since you were asking earlier about FP warranty, I'll share my thoughts on Frances customer service in general. In my experience, most French government and businesses above the level of the local bakery, have no idea or care for customer service and the benefits of satisfied customers. Their systems are archaic and they are not in any hurry to resolve customer issues. Rather they take the stance that if they drag it out long enough, the customer will eventually tire and give up. This applies to any warranty issues as well. Government offices don't have email and contacting by phone is usually impossible so you are forced to communicate via regular post. Electronic forms are not widely in use so again, it's back and forth with regular mail or appointments. This is the case for most, but not all government offices, larger businesses, banks etc. smaller owner operated businesses tend to vary in quality. Some realise the benefit of good customer service, some follow the lead of what they deal with when dealing with banks and government. For the locals, they don't know any better and don't expect anything different. For non locals it can be frustrating...
My experiences with Lagoon and FP are that they are firmly in the government/big business camp, and resolving issues can be frustrating for customers. I've heard good things about outreymer and nothing bad about catana or privelige, so possibly those companies set aside more of their budget for warranty and customer service than Lagoon and FP or possibly it's partly the scale of economics that we don't hear as many of the issues as well.
Lagoon and FP generally discourage direct contact from customers. All contact and warranty issues should be made through the dealer. This means a good dealer can make the world of difference to the customer, either helping resolve the situation with the builder, or helping the builder sweep it under the rug. Sometimes the dealers hands are tied and they are the unfortunate middle man. I've had good and bad results when dealing with lagoon warranty. At times receiving replacement parts in the next port (faulty sail track cars) and at times not being satisfied with their performance. Our dealer has always been extremely helpful in resolving any issues. That said, over the past few years and having two new yachts from lagoon, the issues have been minimal and purchasing them is not based on after sales service, except from our dealer, or on any perceived warranty. Most components on board fall under the individual manufacturers warranty, so if you have an issue with your plotter, it's raymarines issue, not lagoons. Raymarine I should add have some of the worse after sales service I've ever come across btw, but I still like their equipment so will continue using it.
FP in the past have had satisfactory repairs made to all the yachts that suffered from osmosis due to sub quality resins so I would expect they would honour any major structural issues during the warranty period, as I would expect Lagoon to also.
The most disappointed and stressed out customers I've seen from Lagoon and FP have been sailors expecting the same level of after sales service as they might expect from their local Ford dealer. It's not going to happen,,,
Our approach is that the benifit of buying new has nothing to do with warranty, except a slight insurance that anything major within the warranty period may be covered, it generally along the way any small repairs are part of sailing. Hope for the best, expect the worst...
On our L380 we had the following issues serviced and repaired by lagoon to our satisfaction

Damaged sail cars

We fixed the following issues ourselves
Faulty plotter connection - paid a Raymarine tech 100 euro to find the loose fuse under the berth and tighten a screw.
Lazy bag - replaced a sun damaged zip - 80 euros
Broken fridge, my fault - replaced cooling unit for 500 euros
Faulty radar, sent back to Raymarine who fixed it but charged for removal and re installation as well as postage - 300 euro
Loose rudder collar 10 euro

No other issues.

On our l400 we had the following issues repaired by lagoon to our satisfaction
Replaced 2 non return valves
Tested batteries
Replaced broken cupboard catch

We fixed the following issues ourselves

Intermittent wind sensor - paid a tech 60euro to replace cable. Can be claimed back from lagoon with some paperwork but Raymarine makes it difficult.

No other issues

One issue that was t resolved to our satisfaction was the wrong autopilot was installed originally. We specifically wanted the Raymarine evo, but the older ap was installed. After following this up, going to their head office and meeting with their global after sales manager, we soon gave up on expecting satisfaction on that one. Sure we could have engaged a French advocate, taken them to French court etc but decided to move on and let it go
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:02   #3
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Re: Quality claims handling

Hi Monte,

It is easy to have thoughts as I earlier mentioned about French companies but it is bad and rude of me to judge everyone the same. I did also come upon good quality assured French companies in my life. I am really interested in Saba, Helia as well as some Lagoon, Outremer, Catana and Neel models but with bad experiance it is easy to start looking into Leopard and others even if it means I would have to travel to another continent to buy one.

One might as you say expect the same service level as the local Ford dealer. When one pays 500K to a million Euro for a boat the least one should expect is for them to right any wrongs and really, it should not have to be any fuss about it or trying to silent a customer till they loose out on patience. Such behaviour is very poor business practise and this place could be the place to report it.

What would be interesting would be to see what could be accomplished with a few "X-Company name quality claims" threads. I am sure there are readers on this forum from the different manufactureres. It could be a eye opener for many companies if people started posting both good and bad experiances with the different companies.

Something that you mention would make me furious - when the sales rep or dealer has not correctly included your specification and installed the wrong products. That should be a quick re-install en pronto.

You are correct that many companies direct you to their supplier, thing is though, if one is to follow the rules and regulations that just as you file your claim to the dealer who claim their supplier the manufacturer they in turn should file the claim to their sub-supplier which in your case was Raymarine. Since you did not buy the specific equipment directly from Raymarine or their dealers but it was pre-installed by the boat manufacturer they are also the one whom shall drive the claim to Raymarine for you.

It scares me that some companies rather rely on a court case then just to fix the things wrongly made. In reality bad name and bad will is much more costly then to take care of business.

I agree that any small things may happen due to sailing but there should be a reasonable life expectancy. If a boat is marketed as a blue-water boat it and it's components shall be of enough quality to whithstand "normal blue water sailing".
Also, if something is wrong because of a wrong installation, a sales rep missing out on forwarding the customers special requirements to the project or simply a engineering fault then warranty and fixing should only come natural.

/Magnus
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:12   #4
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Re: Quality claims handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by SM6WET View Post
Hi,

I’ve noticed on many threads how people discuss how the repaired and solved things which I believe should have been on manufacturer’s warranty.

What would the interest be in rant about Quality, Quality Claims, Root cause analysis and the benefits for both the customer as well as the manufacturer to treat customer claims correctly?

/Magnus
In the interest of quality could you make this into a real sentence?
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:38   #5
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Re: Quality claims handling

Oh, forgot to mention.
Fountain - Pajot should honor their quality service.
They proudly present themselves as a ISO 9001 certified company.

Being ISO 9001 certified includes quality responsibility.
In short being ISO 9001 means.

  1. Needs to demonstrate its ability to consistently provide product that meets customer and applicable regulatory requirements, and
  2. aims to enhance customer satisfaction through the effective application of the system, including processes for continual improvement of the system and the assurance of conformity to customer and applicable regulatory requirements.
This not only means that the company should be able to consistantly deliver a product according to conformancy to customer requirements as well as regulations. It also means the company must have a plan and adhere to continious improvements. It means for example to take lessons learned from issues and transform a problem into a solution and to prevent it to happen again.

Part of the ISO 9001 rules the certified company must adhere to as well as be audited upon is section 4-8. There are 3 very important things to be documented.
- Control of nonconformity product / service.
- Corrective action.
- Preventive action.

Should a customer be dissatisfied with the service of a quality claim a ISO certified company has they have the possibility to raise their dissaticfaction to the certifying body (after communication about escalating the claim to their certifying body). The company, if at cause would risk loosing their certification should they not comply.

So, what does the little man has to say against Bureau Veritas and other certifying companies........?
Well, they are also certified to be allowed to give the certification. Should they not take your claim serious and investigate it with a audit at the manufacturer you can always go further which in the end can threaten their whole existance as certificator. It means there is no chanse they will not take you serious.

Cheers,
Magnus
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Old 27-04-2015, 11:41   #6
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Re: Quality claims handling

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
In the interest of quality could you make this into a real sentence?
I am sorry that English is not my native language.
My question is if there would be any interested to know more about what your rights is concerning quality claims and what could really be expected from manufacturers who for example claim they adhere to ISO 9000 quality etc.
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Old 27-04-2015, 13:46   #7
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Re: Quality claims handling

Quote:
Originally Posted by SM6WET View Post
Hi,

I’ve noticed on many threads how people discuss how the repaired and solved things which I believe should have been on manufacturer’s warranty.

What would the interest be in rant about Quality, Quality Claims, Root cause analysis and the benefits for both the customer as well as the manufacturer to treat customer claims correctly?

/Magnus
I always assume there will be no support when I need it. We build in redundancy, carry spares and tools and we can fix most systems. (I have a long motorsport, defence and R&.D background. I can repair or upgrade most systems better than a cost constrained manufacturer can)

There are several scenarios which we cant just fix ourselves. These include our pending full instrumentation upgrade, quality and availability of electronic charts and dealing with a lightning strike. These keep us awake.

Experience has taught me that warranties, guarantees and promises arent worth the paper they were printed on. There is often so much effort wasted on risk management or claiming against spurious warranties that the cost and effort exceeds the cost of engineering things well.

Social media does offer us consumers some leverage that we never had before. Vendors that treat us badly will receive the same treatment they afford us. Its still buyer beware but its also dodgy vendor beware.

Sent from my SM-N900T using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app
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