Gender roles in sailing and cruising

[JPA Cate]

Okay guys, here's a critical situation.

Boat dismasted after heaving to about 65 mi. SE Cape Moreton. We were hove to, had supper, and planned to get some rest. A huge Ka-BANG! occurred, and Jim went immediately above decks. I believe he knew what had happened. I got out of my bunk, and tried to turn on the spreader lights as I came above decks, too. The mast was in the water, resting against the hull. The furler was, of course, also in the water, and the bow pulpit squashed, as were the port side lifelines. It was the main sheet and the staysail sheet that were still attached. The mast went squeek, squeek, with each wave train. We were concerned that it might breach the hull.

No question Jim was in charge. He has better understanding of the physics involved. He has been previously dismasted, so experience in this situation.

I really don't care a bit whether someone says it is sexism, because for me, it is that the one who is most fit to deal with a situation takes the lead. And, sometimes, I take the lead, because something is my field of knowledge.

Like I said earlier, Jammer just wanted to get us chatting about this, but what I really think is that most cruising women choose to be as effective as they can. Obviously, there are exceptions, and I think it is unlikely that they would post here, so we can only guess.

Blue Sue, first let me say I really enjoyed your post. If you are a pro-active sailor, as you seem to be, the men will accept you just fine, as you reported. But women should not expect to be accepted as sailors when they have no skills at all.,nor should men. That's an unreasonable expectation. Most men who want to go cruising will view a woman who likes to sail as a great opportunity. (Don't ask.)

Ann

Ann

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Exile

...I don't know about "critical" situations, but in my experience there have been plenty of times when there are several viable options to deal with potentially dicey situations and it comes down to a judgment call. The analysis & discussion is always collaborative, but in the end someone has to make a decision. The most obvious which come to mind are weather-related, but also choices that have to be made with regard to navigation, ports of call, anchoring, strange boats following too closely in the dead of night, passing scenarios with other vessels, etc., etc.

You and your wife are obviously well matched and sound like often of the same mind when it comes to such decision making, but that's not always the case with different crew members.

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

...No question Jim was in charge. He has better understanding of the physics involved. He has been previously dismasted, so experience in this situation.

I don’t see either of these situations as examples of sexism-in-action. Perhaps I’m not explaining myself clearly. In cases where there are multiple 'right answers’ then there may be a discussion, but the helm’s person gets to make the call. Usually we agree, sometimes we don’t. But as with most things in life, there is rarely only one right answer.

While we are both well matched, it doesn’t mean we are equal in all areas. In any situation, one of us may bring more expertise to the decision-making process. But that doesn’t alter the reality that the decision is made in collaboration. In those rare ‘critical situations’ (of which I’d say dismasting certainly qualifies), IF one of us has the expertise, which with us is not always the case , that person will step up.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

I really don't care a bit whether someone says it is sexism, because for me, it is that the one who is most fit to deal with a situation takes the lead. And, sometimes, I take the lead, because something is my field of knowledge.

That's exactly what I would assume from experienced long-distance cruising couples such as yourselves. Not always the case with less experienced couples, of course. I would imagine any disparities at the outset would be harmonized over time, except perhaps in examples like your dismasting scenario for the reasons you cited.

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I don’t see either of these situations as examples of sexism-in-action. Perhaps I’m not explaining myself clearly. In cases where there are multiple 'right answers’ then there may be a discussion, but the helm’s person gets to make the call. Usually we agree, sometimes we don’t. But as with most things in life, there is rarely only one right answer.

True, and I don't think I can recall a post of yours when you haven't explained yourself clearly. But in non-critical but potentially dicey scenarios where getting it wrong could be consequential, it's often a judgment call. Not unlike the Cate's it sounds, you and your wife may not be equally matched in all areas, but you certainly have an equal say in decision making. In my case, I often have crew (male & female) who are more experienced sailors than I am, but they don't know the boat as well as I do and have nothing at stake should there be a screw-up. In those cases decision making is still collaborative, but the final say is mine and there's nothing "sexist" about it if the crew member happens to be female.

While we are both well matched, it doesn’t mean we are equal in all areas. In any situation, one of us may bring more expertise to the decision-making process. But that doesn’t alter the reality that the decision is made in collaboration. In those rare ‘critical situations’ (of which I’d say dismasting certainly qualifies), IF one of us has the expertise, which with us is not always the case , that person will step up.

My only point in all this is to push back a bit on what I see is a tendency to reach conclusions and assign labels based on stereotypes rather than facts. And that's potentially true even if we take what seemed to be one of the more outwardly egregious examples a poster offered here, namely the docking where the husband screwed up at the helm but then barked at his wife who was handling the lines. It's certainly possible that a male crew member handling the lines would also have been barked at in the same fashion. After all, acting like an a**hole can certainly be gender-neutral!

[atmartin]

Originally Posted by Exile

My only point in all this is to push back a bit on what I see is a tendency to reach conclusions and assign labels based on stereotypes rather than facts. And that's potentially true even if we take what seemed to be one of the more outwardly egregious examples a poster offered here, namely the docking where the husband screwed up at the helm but then barked at his wife who was handling the lines. It's certainly possible that a male crew member handling the lines would also have been barked at in the same fashion. After all, acting like an a**hole can certainly be gender-neutral!

I understand your point and the difference between equality of opportunity vs outcome. However, the husband barker/skipper and wife linehandler combo is so common that, as far as I'm concerned, it's more than the occasional A-hole. Often, I am working in marinas and end up helping people dock. I've seen a seventy year old lady jump off her Catalina (and fall), dockline in hand, because she thought that was something you simply had to do to dock successfully. Her husband was the worst driver I'd ever seen, he finally asked for some advice after several slams into the dock and other boats. Neither of them had any skill or experience, but the husband had more confidence.

This doesn't seem to happen much with cruising couples. Offshore sailing has a way of weeding out false confidence. However, in the sailing community at large, there's usually the expectation that the man should know how to drive the boat. Many of these couples are buying their first boat in their retirement years and have little to no prior experience. Between husband and wife, it's a toss up who's the least bad skipper. More often than not with the retired crowd, the husband drives. There's more to that than "the best person doing the job". I have given sailing lessons to several older couples and worked for many others. My experience is anecdotal, but not merely based on how bad things can look to an outside observer.

As for the Captain Blighs, there's an inverse relationship between the skill of the crew and the amount of shouting onboard. Some professional boats are eerily silent. Everybody just knows their job. Like a hive mind. Nervous/Scared/Frustrated skippers do most of the shouting.

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I don’t see either of these situations as examples of sexism-in-action. Perhaps I’m not explaining myself clearly. In cases where there are multiple 'right answers’ then there may be a discussion, but the helm’s person gets to make the call. Usually we agree, sometimes we don’t. But as with most things in life, there is rarely only one right answer.

While we are both well matched, it doesn’t mean we are equal in all areas. In any situation, one of us may bring more expertise to the decision-making process. But that doesn’t alter the reality that the decision is made in collaboration. In those rare ‘critical situations’ (of which I’d say dismasting certainly qualifies), IF one of us has the expertise, which with us is not always the case , that person will step up.

I think you should go hug your partner. Right now. Because I really don't think you appreciate how lucky you are

Given two inexperienced (especially together) sailors, I can think of no end of things that can go wrong and demand (or at least seem to—which is an important point to consider) immediate response. Docking under adverse conditions, sail and line f*ck-ups, airborne dinghies, objects overboard, engine issues etc. For me, the problem is there isn't one right answer to any given problem and if you feel it needs to be dealt with now the biggest boon to any collective is confidence in the decision making process.

In my opinion gender enters the equation because, like it or not, most of the sailing populace is of a certain generation and most of us have been programmed from birth to react differently along gendered lines and have different levels of confidence in certain modes of action. Face it, humans have a lot of herd animal in them and often default to following the "leader" and that is unfortunately often defined by levels of testosterone exhibited.

99.9% of the time Mike, I have a relationship that I like to think of as perfectly egalitarian and we truly do share the decision making process for just about everything...but when the sh*t hits the fan — or, as I mentioned, we just think it has — I regress and start making assumptions. Two men would generally have worked it out already using any number of subtle or not-so-subtle chest-beating rituals. Mixed genders might need a more forthright statement of who's in charge. This sort of thing will lessen as we become more experienced but I don't think we can escape the infinite ways things can scare the bejeesus out of you.

Having said all that, I think — I know — its a crock-of-sh*t excuse and I work very hard to get over myself. Probably still will be the day I finally sink...

[cyan]

Originally Posted by atmartin

As for the Captain Blighs, there's an inverse relationship between the skill of the crew and the amount of shouting onboard.

In fairness to Bligh, his biggest crime seemed to be telling his crew that it was time to get back on the boat after spending 5 months in the promiscuious paradise of Tahiti. (floggings notwithstanding)

I think your shouting vs skill onboard statement is spot on. However, there is an additional factor in some cases. There can be an incorrect PERCEPTION of a Capt Bligh simply because of a shout coming from someone who never shouts. A couple that lives together on land for years in a small house can go without EVER shouting at each other. When this happy pair is eventually at opposite ends of a 36 foot sailboat, a shout is more likely for simple communication. If that communication comes from the bow to command an important and immediate change of course at the helm, it can sound quite unusual to the happy home-dwellers.

My partner likes to tell the old story when I once (foolishly) placed her at the helm on a nice beam reach with instructions to hold the course, very early in her sailing days. When I was at the bow to deal with a cranky furler, I noticed she had veered and was about to perform an accidental tack with a slack main sheet that would have had provided similar boom action of a crash jibe. In all our years together, she had never heard me yell at her, much less with urgent commands.

In her mind, this event exposed a scary, loud commander that she had never seen in all our years together. (Not angry or profane. Simply loud and urgent.) After many miles together since then, we laugh about it. Yes, the big mistake was mine- not enough instruction given, too many assumptions made. However her colorful view of the event indeed has a Capt Bligh in it- (you know, the guy whose biggest mistake was letting his crew chase half-naked girls.)

[Exile]

Originally Posted by atmartin

I understand your point and the difference between equality of opportunity vs outcome. However, the husband barker/skipper and wife linehandler combo is so common that, as far as I'm concerned, it's more than the occasional A-hole. Often, I am working in marinas and end up helping people dock. I've seen a seventy year old lady jump off her Catalina (and fall), dockline in hand, because she thought that was something you simply had to do to dock successfully. Her husband was the worst driver I'd ever seen, he finally asked for some advice after several slams into the dock and other boats. Neither of them had any skill or experience, but the husband had more confidence.

I'm not sure what you mean by equality of opportunity vs. outcome or whether that was my point, but no matter. I'm sure I haven't seen as many of these docking dramas as you have, but I've seen enough not to question your observations. But I do question your assumption that the reason the guy is more often than not at the helm is on account of sexism, i.e. that the woman has been relegated to handling the lines on account of her being a woman. For all we know the woman is more adept at the helm but doesn't want anything to do with it. And yes, this could be the case more often than not as you've observed, but who's responsible for that dynamic?

This doesn't seem to happen much with cruising couples. Offshore sailing has a way of weeding out false confidence. However, in the sailing community at large, there's usually the expectation that the man should know how to drive the boat. Many of these couples are buying their first boat in their retirement years and have little to no prior experience. Between husband and wife, it's a toss up who's the least bad skipper. More often than not with the retired crowd, the husband drives. There's more to that than "the best person doing the job". I have given sailing lessons to several older couples and worked for many others. My experience is anecdotal, but not merely based on how bad things can look to an outside observer.

I'd say my experience is anecdotal, but yours probably adds up to more of a well-substantiated pattern. But again, the question is why? Because of a belief on the part of a majority of men that women are somehow less capable at the wheel on account of their gender? Well . . . yes, in some cases. But can you conclude this is what is really going on with most of these couples you're observing?

As for the Captain Blighs, there's an inverse relationship between the skill of the crew and the amount of shouting onboard. Some professional boats are eerily silent. Everybody just knows their job. Like a hive mind. Nervous/Scared/Frustrated skippers do most of the shouting.

Yup, probably right.

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by atmartin

However, in the sailing community at large, there's usually the expectation that the man should know how to drive the boat. Many of these couples are buying their first boat in their retirement years and have little to no prior experience. Between husband and wife, it's a toss up who's the least bad skipper. More often than not with the retired crowd, the husband drives. There's more to that than "the best person doing the job". I have given sailing lessons to several older couples and worked for many others. My experience is anecdotal, but not merely based on how bad things can look to an outside observer.

Exile can call me sexist all he wants, that's his prerogative, but what Atmartin reports is also what I see not only in the boating community but in the RV community too when I had a small travel trailer. This is certainly not universal. As stated by others here, there are many couples who learn together and build to their strengths. This is probably more so with cruising couples as noted although I see a lot of solo men in this community, too. The only way that I can see for experience to happen is for both to learn all aspects of the boat, which means taking control of the helm, figuring out weather, deciding on the path to a destination, doing the docking, checking fluids, and on and on. I'm not saying this is done all one sided to the detriment of the boat, but the woman should own her decisions and the man should accept even if he would like to tack earlier for a reason that has nothing to do with safety, for example. For a couple in which the man is already more experienced than the woman, I believe this relinquishment is even more important because she is more likely to always defer to his experience and knowledge, which (as in an MOB situation) would be to his detriment, n'est pas?

As to what happens on my boat, those who sail with me frequently learn everything about the boat, not only how to sail it to get where they want to go, but how the systems work and how to dock -- stern in. I'm always the one "in charge" although on 3 occasions I've told friends I trust and who know my boat because of the time they've spent on it, that they could take it without me. Trust is powerful; experience is empowering.

Anyway, I think what Exile meant to write was "sexiest"

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Trust is powerful; experience is empowering.

+1

[gamayun]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

I think you should go hug your partner. Right now. Because I really don't think you appreciate how lucky you are [emoji2]

Given two inexperienced (especially together) sailors, I can think of no end of things that can go wrong and demand (or at least seem to—which is an important point to consider) immediate response. Docking under adverse conditions, sail and line f*ck-ups, airborne dinghies, objects overboard, engine issues etc. For me, the problem is there isn't one right answer to any given problem and if you feel it needs to be dealt with now the biggest boon to any collective is confidence in the decision making process.

In my opinion gender enters the equation because, like it or not, most of the sailing populace is of a certain generation and most of us have been programmed from birth to react differently along gendered lines and have different levels of confidence in certain modes of action. Face it, humans have a lot of herd animal in them and often default to following the "leader" and that is unfortunately often defined by levels of testosterone exhibited.

99.9% of the time Mike, I have a relationship that I like to think of as perfectly egalitarian and we truly do share the decision making process for just about everything...but when the sh*t hits the fan — or, as I mentioned, we just think it has — I regress and start making assumptions. Two men would generally have worked it out already using any number of subtle or not-so-subtle chest-beating rituals. Mixed genders might need a more forthright statement of who's in charge. This sort of thing will lessen as we become more experienced but I don't think we can escape the infinite ways things can scare the bejeesus out of you.

Having said all that, I think — I know — its a crock-of-sh*t excuse and I work very hard to get over myself. Probably still will be the day I finally sink...

Nice. An enlightened man, is a sexy man, Macblaze. Your partner should give you a big hug!

[gamayun]

Oh, and while I'm on a roll, let me also say how scary and intimidating it will be for your partner do be the one making decisions. Baby steps, dude. Don't just throw her out into that big scary world all at once. Ask her to take the boat to the fuel dock and you act as her crew taking her commands. If you bump the gelcoat, just send me the bill.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Macblaze

I think you should go hug your partner. Right now. Because I really don't think you appreciate how lucky you are

Sounds to me like Mike does know how lucky he is! But are you approving because they seem so harmonious, or because you personally believe this "perfectly egalitarian" example is the only way to achieve such harmony?

* * *

In my opinion gender enters the equation because, like it or not, most of the sailing populace is of a certain generation and most of us have been programmed from birth to react differently along gendered lines and have different levels of confidence in certain modes of action. Face it, humans have a lot of herd animal in them and often default to following the "leader" and that is unfortunately often defined by levels of testosterone exhibited.

Can't even begin to count the assumptions, stereotypes, and prejudgments (a/k/a prejudice) inherent in this comment. The only over-generalization I can agree with is that gender most certainly can and often does enter the equation. But whether it devolves into sexism is a matter of individual choice amongst the parties, whether or not it's "programmed from birth," the product of a herd mentality, or the result of testosterone.

99.9% of the time Mike, I have a relationship that I like to think of as perfectly egalitarian and we truly do share the decision making process for just about everything...but when the sh*t hits the fan — or, as I mentioned, we just think it has — I regress and start making assumptions. Two men would generally have worked it out already using any number of subtle or not-so-subtle chest-beating rituals. Mixed genders might need a more forthright statement of who's in charge. This sort of thing will lessen as we become more experienced but I don't think we can escape the infinite ways things can scare the bejeesus out of you.

Having said all that, I think — I know — its a crock-of-sh*t excuse and I work very hard to get over myself. Probably still will be the day I finally sink...

"[A] crock-of-sh*t excuse" for what exactly? Being human? Or being an evil, privileged guy seeking to browbeat a poor, defenseless female partner?

[Macblaze]

Originally Posted by Exile

"[A] crock-of-sh*t excuse" for what exactly? Being human? Or being an evil, privileged guy seeking to browbeat a poor, defenseless female partner?

Ya, I kinda think "being human" is generally a piss poor excuse for anything. Personally my philosophy is to use it as an excuse to forgive everyone else and as a standard to jerk my own chain when I get to big for my own britches. It almost works sometimes.

[gamayun]

Exile, I suggest you do a little study on implicit bias. Then tell us you have none...

[Exile]

Originally Posted by gamayun

Exile can call me sexist all he wants, that's his prerogative, but what Atmartin reports is also what I see not only in the boating community but in the RV community too when I had a small travel trailer. This is certainly not universal. As stated by others here, there are many couples who learn together and build to their strengths. This is probably more so with cruising couples as noted although I see a lot of solo men in this community, too. The only way that I can see for experience to happen is for both to learn all aspects of the boat, which means taking control of the helm, figuring out weather, deciding on the path to a destination, doing the docking, checking fluids, and on and on. I'm not saying this is done all one sided to the detriment of the boat, but the woman should own her decisions and the man should accept even if he would like to tack earlier for a reason that has nothing to do with safety, for example. For a couple in which the man is already more experienced than the woman, I believe this relinquishment is even more important because she is more likely to always defer to his experience and knowledge, which (as in an MOB situation) would be to his detriment, n'est pas?

As to what happens on my boat, those who sail with me frequently learn everything about the boat, not only how to sail it to get where they want to go, but how the systems work and how to dock -- stern in. I'm always the one "in charge" although on 3 occasions I've told friends I trust and who know my boat because of the time they've spent on it, that they could take it without me. Trust is powerful; experience is empowering.

Anyway, I think what Exile meant to write was "sexiest"

You're right gamayun, I meant to write "sexiest." The last postings I read from you awhile back you were planing a solo TransPac. The little I know about you from your posts causes me to assume you pulled it off. If so, then that's the sexiest (in my book), and you have my envy, admiration & congratulations. Oops, was that comment sexist??

Maybe it was my growing up with three(!!) very strong-willed (but loving & caring) older sisters that resulted in my having a different perspective than you and some others around here, but in my view assuming that sexism is presumptively to blame for the observations you and others (accurately) describe is what is actually demeaning to the woman in such cases. At a minimum, I would want to rule out other gender-neutral reasons for the inappropriate behavior before I assumed that a woman would subject herself to such treatment.

Only my perspective, but one I find healthier than the victimization one that seems to be so fashionable these days. Call me what you want, but I just don't see any inherent gender-based deficiencies when it comes to women & boats, or much of anything else for that matter. I once had a couple onboard where the hubby was really into all the nuances of running the boat, but the wifey could care less and only wanted to prepare meals. They were far from a "traditional" couple and were quite young actually. It's just what they preferred to do so that's what they did. It was great for me because I was relieved of many of my boat duties and ate fantastic meals. (I did the dishes). I can't imagine sexism entered anyone's mind.

Originally Posted by gamayun

Exile, I suggest you do a little study on implicit bias. Then tell us you have none...

We all have bias gamayun, and as a human being I'm certainly no exception. Some of us admit to it more readily than others, while some refuse to admit it and try to "make up for it" by prostrating themselves before the alter of political correctness. But none of that is meaningful compared to how we deal with it which is really the only thing that counts. Most of us know many who have been legitimate victims of bias, prejudice, and even discrimination, but not all of them are victimized.