Amel 64 , will it sail in light winds ?

[mitiempo]

Depends on the sails flown. With a ketch you have more options.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by billknny

Yes, a lower D/L, but also a lower SA/D (16 vs 19) so... I'll not make any predictions one way or the other.

No question, however, the Amel 55 and 64 (and double for the new 50) are very different beasts than the previous generations of Amels up to the 54.

I believe that low SA/D has to do with considering a jib while the new Amel comes with 3 front sails, two of them for light winds, one of them a big code 0. You can see that the boat sails well with light winds.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TSsEHkDm1X4&t=252s

But with strong winds and seas, upwind, I will bet on your boat regarding a better performance.

[Braavos]

64' Hallberg-Rassy 64. Wow that is one nice boat ... Think I will forget about the amel .

[Ozifrog]

I think some of these responses are very pertinent. Just remember that 10 knots is 4 times the wind force of 5 knots. You should sail very nicely in 10 knots on all but a square run.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Braavos

64' Hallberg-Rassy 64. Wow that is one nice boat ... Think I will forget about the amel .

I don't like to say to sailors that one boat is better than other since it depends much on what they like most on a sailboat, their budget and lifestyle but I will tell you that I find the HR 64 nicer than the Amel (on the outside)




and also that the boat sails well in bad weather. I know you would like to have a look at this movie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYs7fDPnvIs

About that video:

"We have got many comments about the speed record and the video from the trail sails for European Yacht of the Year in Ijmuiden. Many people ask about this so I here tell some more about this:

We sailed a Hallberg-Rassy 64 on Monday 12 September, in the remaining of hurricane Katja. The boat had to leave shortly after that to make it in time for the Genoa boat show. It was a hell of a lot of wind, I have never sailed in so much wind before. But everything went well. There is no better way to demonstrate the good use of a hardtop! The wind was between 40 and 51 knots. The waves were nasty, probably 4 meters or so. The boat speed record was 18 knots. Sailing in 14 knots is extremely fast, everything just shakes, but sailing in 18 knots is like having a rocket in your back, pushing you at full throttle!

The berth was really tight to get out from, but it worked. We were the first to go out and two other boats tried sailing (out of 7 that should have) For example one boat nominated to the EYOTY, which has "Stability is everything" as its promotion, didn't sail but heeled almost to the toe rail without sails in the harbor! The Hallberg-Rassy 64 always felt stiff and secure.

The Norwegian magazine Seilas web site wrote: "To sail boats with cutter sail and maximum reefed mainsail doesn't say a lot about the boats performance in ordinary weather conditions, but we did find out how boats cope with extreme weather. I felt that the Hallberg-Rassy managed this best. As a matter of fact, she was great fun and uncomplicated to sail upwind against this weather."

If you like the type of fixed dodger that Amel features the HR64 has also one. It all depends were you are going to sail mostly.

[Hobie_ind]

No offence, but just to be clear. You're considering plunking down $2MM+ (even for a used one) and you're basing your evaluation initially on performance considerations and advise from an internet forum, where nobody who's answered to date (that I've noticed) has even stepped on one let alone sailed one.

If you've got that budget and are in that market, I'd book a flight to France, then Sweden to go visit the factories and take a test sail. Most (all?) of the 60'+ boat owners I've known are far less concerned about diesel consumption in light winds than layout, options, ease of handling, crew / guest accomodations, fit and finish details, etc. As most of them have also been sailing on a schedule (work commitments, marina bookings, guests flying in, etc.) they're also less willing to 'plod' along at even 4-5 knots in light winds and fire up the diesel to maintain schedule.

Nothing wrong with it, just my observations of the majority owners of these larger boats that I've got to know in the PNW, Caribbean, South Pacific, NZ and Australia.

Note that in this range, there's also a bunch of other options such as Oyster, Jeanneau, Moody, custom designs, etc, etc. etc.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

No offence, but just to be clear. You're considering plunking down $2MM+ (even for a used one) and you're basing your evaluation initially on performance considerations and advise from an internet forum, where nobody who's answered to date (that I've noticed) has even stepped on one let alone sailed one.

If you've got that budget and are in that market, I'd book a flight to France, then Sweden to go visit the factories and take a test sail. Most (all?) of the 60'+ boat owners I've known are far less concerned about diesel consumption in light winds than layout, options, ease of handling, crew / guest accomodations, fit and finish details, etc. As most of them have also been sailing on a schedule (work commitments, marina bookings, guests flying in, etc.) they're also less willing to 'plod' along at even 4-5 knots in light winds and fire up the diesel to maintain schedule.

Nothing wrong with it, just my observations of the majority owners of these larger boats that I've got to know in the PNW, Caribbean, South Pacific, NZ and Australia....

There are thing you will not see on a test sail on light conditions and that has nothing to do with the interior but with sailing, stability and safety in extreme conditions:

The Amel 64 and the Halberg Rassy 64 have not a very different displacement, the same type of hull, even if the Amel is a bit more beamy, the same type of keel and about the same draft.

There is a big diference however, the Amel has 8.5T ballast, the Halberg-Rassy has 12.7T.

You may or may not know what are the implications this has in what regards sailing, seaworthiness and stiffness but I will tell you that if you don't know it, it is not on a sail test with light winds or visiting the boat on a boat show or at the shipyard that you will find out.

That diference in ballast and the implications it has on the boat sail performance and seaworthiness is the biggest diference between the two boats.

[DMCantor]

We spent a lot of time sailing on the Lake of Lucerne (Switzerland), in winds of 3-5 knots. Guess what -- you can sail in those conditions in almost any boat. The general rule of thumb that you sail at about half the apparent wind speed still applies. I.e. 1.5 to 2.5 knots (or a bit less).

If you are in a beautiful place, there is no hurry to go somewhere else.

[boom23]

I recommend you visit the factory and talk to people who, actually, own the boat you are interested in.

For that kind of purchase, I would hire a naval architect for guidance.

There are a lot of opinions on the Internet...

Good luck on your quest.

[robert sailor]

Originally Posted by Polux

There are thing you will not see on a test sail on light conditions and that has nothing to do with the interior but with sailing, stability and safety in extreme conditions:

The Amel 64 and the Halberg Rassy 64 have not a very different displacement, the same type of hull, even if the Amel is a bit more beamy, the same type of keel and about the same draft.

There is a big diference however, the Amel has 8.5T ballast, the Halberg-Rassy has 12.7T.

You may or may not know what are the implications this has in what regards sailing, seaworthiness and stiffness but I will tell you that if you don't know it, it is not on a sail test with light winds or visiting the boat on a boat show or at the shipyard that you will find out.

That diference in ballast and the implications it has on the boat sail performance and seaworthiness is the biggest diference between the two boats.

Ok I certainly accept your opinion on ballast even on very beamy boats. You made a point to how well the HR stood up to her sail in really strong winds because she carried so much ballast and the Amel was lightly balasted in comparison even though both boats get their iinitial stability from the very wide beam. In the past youve been a promoter of wide beam and light ballast on all the production boats you like. Why are you now promoting a much higher ballast ratio on boats like the HR?

[Braavos]

Originally Posted by Hobie_ind

No offence, but just to be clear. You're considering plunking down $2MM+ (even for a used one) and you're basing your evaluation initially on performance considerations and advise from an internet forum, where nobody who's answered to date (that I've noticed) has even stepped on one let alone sailed one.

If you've got that budget and are in that market, I'd book a flight to France, then Sweden to go visit the factories and take a test sail. Most (all?) of the 60'+ boat owners I've known are far less concerned about diesel consumption in light winds than layout, options, ease of handling, crew / guest accomodations, fit and finish details, etc. As most of them have also been sailing on a schedule (work commitments, marina bookings, guests flying in, etc.) they're also less willing to 'plod' along at even 4-5 knots in light winds and fire up the diesel to maintain schedule.

Nothing wrong with it, just my observations of the majority owners of these larger boats that I've got to know in the PNW, Caribbean, South Pacific, NZ and Australia.

Note that in this range, there's also a bunch of other options such as Oyster, Jeanneau, Moody, custom designs, etc, etc. etc.

I don't know anything about sailboats... I don't even know how to sail. The only thing I know about boats is by watching YouTube channels , and listen to people talk... I take every opinion with a grain of salt ,, but I'm the kind of person that feels a salesperson or factory visit is the last thing I need to do ,,,because they always have their self interest at heart ,,,they're going to talk about how their boats are the best.. it will be my first boat purchase , but I'm not going to buy a 30 or 40 foot boat ,I want to learn to sail, and I feel like for me a 60 foot is about the range that I personally choose to start , with whether you agree with that or not that's what I'm going to purchase ,, and as for the money, I've got the money to spend on this and I made the decision to do so .... so I'm looking for a sixty to 70 foot boat,, a very narrow margin...
I'm not going to explain my reasons for wanting this, it's my decision and that's what I'm looking for ... I liked the look of the Ketch the amel, but for several reasons, including some that have came out in this form, I've decided not to buy a amel.. I looked at the oyster 675 , 625 but to me they seem like cheap mass-produced boats.. I will hire a sailing instructor the teach me how to sail ,whatever boat I purchase..
But even sailing instructors seem to want to get a kickback or a commission for recommending a boat ,,again they have their self interest at heart..
... not all of them I like this I know, but I thought getting on this forum.. I could get advice from actual boat owners, experienced sailors, it had nothing to gain but trying to help someone reaches decision...
I like the amels and I like the ketch, but I don't want to be deep down inside a closed cockpit, a hundred percent of the time , a very simple reason . I know , but , it's my decision..
I I plan on sailing in the Mediterranean ..crossing the Atlantic, and sailing the Caribbean ,, that may be as far as I get,,,,,,, the South Pacific may not ever happen for me. although it is an attractive idea... they only thing I like about the oysters is that it would seem like I could get plenty of replacement parts and perhaps good customer service for the boat... to me they seem cheaply built... The beneteau's , have no laugh deck behind the pilot Helms.. So I dismiss them..
I really like the hallbary- Rassy 64. But I will only consider buying a new boat not used..
I will cuz I'm still looking at the 675 oyster although it's a distant second at this point..
My next learning area is going to be what Electronics to ask for and if oyster would even consider customizing it out , because I've been told they're not very friendly about customizing out their boats.. to keep them in my field of being considered.. I'm told HR 64 . is more easily customize to the purchase

[Polux]

Originally Posted by DMCantor

We spent a lot of time sailing on the Lake of Lucerne (Switzerland), in winds of 3-5 knots. Guess what -- you can sail in those conditions in almost any boat. The general rule of thumb that you sail at about half the apparent wind speed still applies. I.e. 1.5 to 2.5 knots (or a bit less).

If you are in a beautiful place, there is no hurry to go somewhere else.

It depends mostly on the boat. That's one of the points where the difference between a performance cruiser and a cruiser is clearer.

Of course it will depend on the point of sail but with 3 to 5k I tend to sail on the direction the boat goes faster making wind and if I do that I will sail over wind speed with those winds.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Braavos

I've been looking at buying a boat and I started looking at the Amels. But every video I can find on them , has them is in high winds and rough Seas talking about how smooth the ride is , well that's great. , but they also comment that it takes Good wind to sail them , so my question is. , is there anyone out there with experience with amels , ? maybe the Amel 64 ? if you only have a light when say 5 to 10 knots will it even be able to sail on a Amel ??

Great boats, but not a snowflakes chance in hell of sailing in 5 knots of breeze

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Ok I certainly accept your opinion on ballast even on very beamy boats. You made a point to how well the HR stood up to her sail in really strong winds because she carried so much ballast and the Amel was lightly balasted in comparison even though both boats get their iinitial stability from the very wide beam. In the past youve been a promoter of wide beam and light ballast on all the production boats you like. Why are you now promoting a much higher ballast ratio on boats like the HR?

No you are wrong regarding a low B/D ratio and if you understood that I am saying that the hull of the HR is better than the one of the Amel because the one of the Amel is beamier you have understood me wrongly. They are just different regarding that point with different advantages and disadvantages.

Newer designs from HR than the one of the 64 are proportionally more beamier even if the 64 is already proportionally beamier than older HR.

Wide beam yes I have in the past defended that, but wide beam then (at that time), it is a normal beam now, I was just pointing to the development trend in cruising boat design.

And wide beam for main market cruising boats, with the beam pulled back, (taking as reference solo offshore racer's hulls) makes a lot of sense for many reasons including sailing with less heel, having a more stable platform and having more easily driven boats on autopilot and downwind.

The costs are slightly less good performance in very light winds and a slight less of performance upwind (considering boats with a similar D/L and a similar SA/D). But as most cruisers will turn the engine on those conditions the compromise is a good one regarding the vast majority and it is why most cruisers are designed that way now.

Personally I prefer light boats with a moderate beam, a better performance upwind and on very light winds. I like to sail, even on light winds and somehow I end up always sailing a lot more upwind than downind. I only turn the engine when the boat is doing less than 3k.

Regarding preferring boats with a small B/D you are plain wrong, quite the contrary assuming that the boats have similar keels and draft, I always have defended the opposite.

Probably you are confusing my preference for highly efficient torpedo keels with a considerable draft that can generate the same RM with a much smaller B/D as an old designed keel with a considerably smaller draft and a much bigger B/D ratio?

You can go to my blog and look at two different comparaisons of boats with a somewhat similar hull but very different B/D for the same type of keels and drafts and you will see clearly my opinion regarding the subject, an opinion that privileges safety stability and power.

The two more recent comparisons are between a Wauquiez 42 PS versus an Elan GT5 and between a Hanse 548 versus a Solaris 55.

Or the review about the new Bavaria C45, that is a much bettered boat in all counts, including boat structure and where I complain about the boat having a similar Amel 64 B/D, even if with a more efficient keel.

I may even have contributed to convince the engineer responsible for the new boat structure to have a better B/D on the more expensive version of the boat that they call "Ambition". I will know more about that at Dusseldorf in some days. He is going to show me the improvements on the Bavaria boat structure on the C line.

[J Clark H356]

Since you haven’t sailed, you need to consider both the mast height above the water so you can get into ports under bridges, and the depth of the keel. The boats you are looking at presently have both deep keel and tall masts. These are factors in where you can go as many places are off limits with 9’ plus keels and 100 foot masts. Just keep that in mind as you decide what to buy. Where you go is determined by both the above factors, and most cruisers spend much more time in port or at anchor than they do going place to place.