Nobody really needs to know how to navigate anymore, do they?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by rwidman

But can you communicate with someone in the distance using smoke signals?
.

Some fire lighters and green wood and a fire blanket.. no problem..
If its good enuf for Redford..

[StuM]

Originally Posted by sammyo

Are multi-frequency "GPS" receivers for the other systems (Galileo, Beidou, GLONASS) available yet?

Even my old Samsug Galaxy SII received GLONASS as well.

There are now lots of "quad system" chips on the market, but I don't know which, if any, production receivers use them.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Let's say all electronics are down. No idea why you think you need to know your position to adjust your compass. At night find the north star. Point the boat at it and mark what your compass says. Then point the boat away from it and read the compass. Do the same thing with it on each beam and you can now set a heading based on the cardinal directions.

Can't see the north star where I sail

[StuM]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

If you want to do it during the day, watch where the sun rises and sets and make a rough estimate based on your starting location Ie: if close to the equator at an equinox, sun rises in east and sets in west. If north, guestimate that it's a bit south of east/west.

If you've got an analog watch or clock, point the hour hand at the sun. The N/S line lies half way between the hour hand and 12 o'clock. (if it's a digital watch, try to remember where the numbers were when you last had an analog watch and aim in the general direction )

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by StuM

If you've got an analog watch or clock, point the hour hand at the sun. The N/S line lies half way between the hour hand and 12 o'clock. (if it's a digital watch, try to remember where the numbers were when you last had an analog watch and aim in the general direction )

Good trick (and there are many more) but for someone with minimal astronomical knowledge, most people are familiar with where the sun rises and sets and can make a good rough estimate to set a compass heading (north star is even better if not too far south)

Reality is for the vanishingly rare situation where all electronics fail, there are simple options that will get you pointed in the right direction.

[barnakiel]

Most cruisers do not navigate anyways. They simply go from one place to another.

And I am fine with this. The ocean is a huge playfield, let everyone sail their own way.

b.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by ur2slo

I couldn't help but add to a simply complex situation here.........

I learned this long ago.....it can cross over to sailing easily. Just substitute nautical terms..


Cat & Duck Method of Instrument Flight

The basic rules for the Cat and Duck method of instrument flight are fairly well known and are extremely simple. Here's how it's done:

1. Place a live cat on the cockpit floor; because a cat always remains upright, he or she can be used in lieu of a needle and ball. Merely watch to see which way the cat leans to determine is a wing is low, and if so, which one.

2. The duck is used for the instrument approach and landing. Because of the fact that any sensible duck will refuse to fly under instrument conditions, it is only necessary to hurl your duck out of the plane and follow her to the ground.

There are some limitations to the Cat and Duck Method, but by rigidly adhering to the following checklist, a degree of success will be achieved which will surely startle you, your passengers, and even an occasional tower operator:

1. Get a wide-awake cat. Most cats do not want to stand up at all. It may be necessary to carry a large dog in the cockpit to keep the cat at attention.

2. Make sure your cat is clean. Dirty cats will spend all their time washing. Trying to follow a washing cat usually results in a tight snap roll followed by an inverted spin (flat).

3. Use old cats only. Young cats have nine lives, but old, used-up cats with only one life left have just as much to lose as you do and will be more dependable.

4. Beware of cowardly ducks. If the duck discovers that you are using the cat to stay upright, she will refuse to leave without the cat. Ducks are no better in IFR conditions than you are.

5. Be sure that the duck has good eyesight. Nearsighted ducks sometimes fail to realize that they are on the gauges and go flogging off into the nearest hill. Very nearsighted ducks will not realize they have been thrown out and will descend to the ground in a sitting position. This maneuver is very difficult to follow in an airplane.

6. Use land-loving ducks. It is very discouraging to break out and find yourself on final for a rice paddy, particularly if there are duck hunters around. Duck hunters suffer from temporary insanity while sitting in freezing weather in the blinds and will shoot at anything that flies.

7. Choose your duck carefully. It is easy to confuse ducks with geese because many water birds look alike. While they are very competent instrument fliers, geese seldom want to go in the same direction as you. If your duck heads off for Canada or Mexico, you may be sure that you have been given the goose. From Instrument Flying by Richard Taylor

This has my vote as: Navigational Post of the Year

We all talk about backups...
but the simplest backup is maintaining and hourly written log with:
COG/SMG/MAG COMPASS HEADING/ LAT-LONG/WIND DATA/SPD LOG

Old Chart (if you prefer) remains stored ready to plot your DR position following the historical guidance from your hourly logged plots so that you can continue with a reasonable level of confidence until you get some kind of fix based on your abilities or luck.

No big deal and just common sense.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Most cruisers do not navigate anyways. They simply go from one place to another.

And I am fine with this. The ocean is a huge playfield, let everyone sail their own way.

b.

I've yet to meet a cruiser (even the most idiotic) that doesn't navigate every time they leave the dock.

Intentionally getting from one place to another is by definition navigating.

Correction: There is the stray cruiser that gets lost but even then they are typically navigating...just not navigating well.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

I've yet to meet a cruiser (even the most idiotic) that doesn't navigate every time they leave the dock.

Intentionally getting from one place to another is by definition navigating.

Correction: There is the stray cruiser that gets lost but even then they are typically navigating...just not navigating well.

+1

Navigate:
The term stems from 1530s, from Latin navigationem (nom. navigatio), from navigatus, pp. of navigare "to sail, sail over, go by sea, steer a ship," from navis "ship" and the root of agere "to drive".

If you steer your vessel to a destination, you are navigating, even if your only instrument is a Mk 1 eyeball.

[JPA Cate]

Well, it seems to me that Dockhead's right. If you are a long distance cruiser, you should have already fixed in your mind, the general course to your destination. Then, ultimately, it comes down to piloting skills. All we really need is to arrive at a legal entry port. However, there are the odd miscellaneous rocks, atolls, reefs in the way, and that's where your paper charts will really help if the chartplotters are down. If you know how to run a DR, that is.

Your choice.

Ann

[Bulawayo]

Really? You think that would work? This is trawled from some light reading point of view and not practical. Of course people keep batteries - anyone that has cruised does this - just as they shall be aware that they degrade over time and that its a schlepp to keep them 'fresh'. The batteries shall rapidly be consumed on a passage. If this is your back up plan then good luck.
I dont use a tablet for navigation, and I stand happy to be corrected, but I thought you needed an external input to get it to operate as a gps off-shore? If I am correct then your theory falls over. Again, though, how are you going to recharge the tablet? It shall run flat rapidly. The lack of comprehension of navigation is self evident. Switch on the hand held unit to know where you are? What about little items enroute like the shoal that took out Team Vespas? That area is nearly 200 km sq.
Your next point: you are coming around to accepting the view that knowledge of traditional navigation is a sensible precaution as you are now requiring the use of heavenly bodies. I also note that not necessarily the most practical ones either. Pointing your boat at the north star for setting your compass? If you are close to the equator then Polaris shall be on the horizon. I doubt many even are aware of that. You'll also find the closest you'll get is around 10 degree's accuracy on a flat sea, on a moving vessel you can double that. Not withstanding, you need some basic celestial knowledge. From mid-ocean you shall end up in a completely different place to that intended with just 10 degree's out; if sailing towards the Marqueses from Galapagos you'll not even see them. In reality I suspect the accuracy shall be vastly worse. How many people even know how to find Polaris? Of course you need an idea of your position to know where to start from. Your little book of how to navigate is of zero use unless you have a starting point. It needn't be pin point but you need a decent approximation. This where having a paper chart becomes critical. Are you aware of variation and its impact on your compass? You are going to swing your compass reliant on Polaris? I believe you are going to have far greater problems than me without your 12volts, should you venture mid ocean and a lightning strike takes out your systems. I have yet to meet a cruiser that really keeps backups in a Farday cage type arrangement despite knowing they could be better off doing so.
You have not even considered other navigation issues - including prevailing currents or understanding of leeway etc. How shall you overcome that?
If I took it a step further than how many are reliant on their refrigeration?

At the end of the day, I also use technology for instant navigation (and for my refrigeration) but if I lost all power tomorrow we have the means to continue safely albeit in less comfort.

I accept that this is perhaps not so pertinent to coastal sailors.

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We have a bag full of misc batteries. If you have battery operated devices, why wouldn't you have replacements?

I have a 6yr old tablet that only goes for about 2hrs (battery is getting old). If I turn it on twice a day for 5 minutes to get a position, that's good for about 12 days. When it was new, it was good for about 6hrs or around 36 days. We actually have 2 tablets, 2 smartphones, 2 laptops with USB-GPS, plus a dedicated handheld, so if batteries go on one, we can use another (and this is fairly typical of modern cruising boats). That's going to generally be good enough to get you to land.

I can also use them to get a compass heading if the stars aren't out and then compare that to the analog compass so I can hold a heading.

Let's say all electronics are down. No idea why you think you need to know your position to adjust your compass. At night find the north star. Point the boat at it and mark what your compass says. Then point the boat away from it and read the compass. Do the same thing with it on each beam and you can now set a heading based on the cardinal directions.

If you want to do it during the day, watch where the sun rises and sets and make a rough estimate based on your starting location Ie: if close to the equator at an equinox, sun rises in east and sets in west. If north, guestimate that it's a bit south of east/west.

If you are that far from land, you have plenty of time to think thru solutions.

[Bulawayo]

Agreed Ann, but the people dependent upon their chart plotters likely cannot use DR and on an ocean passage most anyone shall end up many, many degrees off course. The other factors already mentioned including currents, leeway, variation also play a significant factor to arriving. Having a small scale chart is a huge plus factor in the survivability stakes. Being able to run DR calcs then is also an enormous leap ahead but completing the circle and knowing how to use a sextant (etc) is very satisfying and the cost in monetary terms can be very low. I just dont understand the resistance to learning when it could save your life.

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Well, it seems to me that Dockhead's right. If you are a long distance cruiser, you should have already fixed in your mind, the general course to your destination. Then, ultimately, it comes down to piloting skills. All we really need is to arrive at a legal entry port. However, there are the odd miscellaneous rocks, atolls, reefs in the way, and that's where your paper charts will really help if the chartplotters are down. If you know how to run a DR, that is.

Your choice.

Ann

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Really? You think that would work? This is trawled from some light reading point of view and not practical. Of course people keep batteries - anyone that has cruised does this - just as they shall be aware that they degrade over time and that its a schlepp to keep them 'fresh'. The batteries shall rapidly be consumed on a passage. If this is your back up plan then good luck.

I'm confused, so you don't keep fresh batteries on board for your electronics that use disposable batteries. If that's your assumption, certainly is dumb and will cause problems.

I dont use a tablet for navigation, and I stand happy to be corrected, but I thought you needed an external input to get it to operate as a gps off-shore? If I am correct then your theory falls over.

While I don't use it as a primary navigation, you might want to catch up with the modern world. Pretty much every tablet and smartphone made in the last 5yrs has built in GPS that functions just fine away from the cell network. Lots of free apps that can be used for mapping those coordinates.

Again, though, how are you going to recharge the tablet? It shall run flat rapidly.

Worst case scenario with an old tablet with poor battery life, I have 2 weeks of twice a day fixes. With multiple devices, I demonstrated over a months worth of twice a day fixes.

The lack of comprehension of navigation is self evident. Switch on the hand held unit to know where you are? What about little items enroute like the shoal that took out Team Vespas?

Maybe use those fixes to steer a course well clear. If it's 200km sq, keep clear by 300km. Yeah it's longer but worth the trouble in a tough situation.

That area is nearly 200 km sq.
Your next point: you are coming around to accepting the view that knowledge of traditional navigation is a sensible precaution as you are now requiring the use of heavenly bodies.

The issue I have with the premise is the implication that only sextant based navigation is acceptable. Dead reckoning and other basic navigation skills are still I widespread use by the vast majority of cruises.

I also note that not necessarily the most practical ones either. Pointing your boat at the north star for setting your compass? If you are close to the equator then Polaris shall be on the horizon. Perfect, you get a better fix compared to northern latitudes.I doubt many even are aware of that. You'll also find the closest you'll get is around 10 degree's accuracy on a flat sea, on a moving vessel you can double that. Better than nothing and realistically, hand steering 24/7 for days, 10 deg is abut the best you could do anyway.

Not withstanding, you need some basic celestial knowledge. From mid-ocean you shall end up in a completely different place to that intended with just 10 degree's out; if sailing towards the Marqueses from Galapagos you'll not even see them. In reality I suspect the accuracy shall be vastly worse.
This isn't about accuracy. It's about pointing in a reasonable direction. If you can head reliably in the same direction, you have an idea of what you will find. Even if you are a couple hundred miles off, at least you aren't wandering in circles.

How many people even know how to find Polaris?Most.

Of course you need an idea of your position to know where to start from. Yeah, you last charted position, but that has nothing to do with working out your compass headingYour little book of how to navigate is of zero use unless you have a starting point. It needn't be pin point but you need a decent approximation. This where having a paper chart becomes critical. I doubt even the most foolish open ocean navigators have no idea where they are.Are you aware of variation and its impact on your compass? You are going to swing your compass reliant on Polaris? No need to mess with compass. Just jot down the heading that the compass reads at different headings relative to north.I believe you are going to have far greater problems than me without your 12volts, should you venture mid ocean and a lightning strike takes out your systems. I have yet to meet a cruiser that really keeps backups in a Farday cage type arrangement despite knowing they could be better off doing so.
You have not even considered other navigation issues - including prevailing currents or understanding of leeway etc. How shall you overcome that? Again at that point, it's getting you in the right general area. but odds of all electronics going bad are vanishing low.
If I took it a step further than how many are reliant on their refrigeration? Most people have plenty of dry goods. It may not be a luxurious diet but plenty good enough to get by for a couple weeks.

At the end of the day, I also use technology for instant navigation (and for my refrigeration) but if I lost all power tomorrow we have the means to continue safely albeit in less comfort. As do most every other cruiser out there including those who don't own a sextant.

I accept that this is perhaps not so pertinent to coastal sailors.and even less so to blue water sailors.

Enjoy your hobby playing with a sextant but the modern world has left it behind.

[Sandero]

I think for all practical purposes... probably 99.9% of boating is recreational within 10 miles from the coast line... and most *navigation* can be done with... and is being done with electronic stuff from designated marine gear to mobile devices. And people can and do have multiple devices which they use (redundancy). This has probably made recreational boating MORE safe...

BUT....

If you are going to leave the well worn, beaten path... you likely need to have more reliability and back up and some old world navigation skills and charts. You may not need them... but if your electronics go belly up... you'd be SOL out there. And that would be not a prudent approach to the mission.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

. . . Of course people keep batteries - anyone that has cruised does this - just as they shall be aware that they degrade over time and that its a schlepp to keep them 'fresh'. The batteries shall rapidly be consumed on a passage. If this is your back up plan then good luck.

Why does there have to be a traditional nav vs. electronics dichotomy? I personally think you need to be strong in both. They are very much complementary to one another.

As to batteries: Duracells are good for 10 years. https://www.duracell.com/en-us/produ...ertop-battery/

I keep a significant supply (maybe 80 of them) vacuum packed with desiccation and oxygen absorbers in the grab bag. That is on top of the normal ship's supply (used for flashlights and all kinds of other stuff).

No kind of schlepp at all.

Besides that, a solar charger for anything which has a rechargeable battery.

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

I dont use a tablet for navigation, and I stand happy to be corrected, but I thought you needed an external input to get it to operate as a gps off-shore? If I am correct then your theory falls over.

No, the GPS on modern tablets, the GPS works like any other. Actually better, since they all now receive GLONASS as well as GPS.

Originally Posted by Bulawayo

Again, though, how are you going to recharge the tablet? It shall run flat rapidly. The lack of comprehension of navigation is self evident. Switch on the hand held unit to know where you are? What about little items enroute like the shoal that took out Team Vespas? That area is nearly 200 km sq. . . .

I keep an old Android tablet with GPS/GLONASS, OpenCPN, and the whole world on CM93 charts, in a cookie tin. Recharge it with the solar charger.

But in an emergency situation, you probably wouldn't even need to recharge it. Switch it on once or twice a day and use DR in between.


I think we're all grossly overthinking this. If you have a bit of common sense and normal seamanship, and a minimal level of preparation, then none of these things is a matter of life and death.

My Dad's boat was hit directly by lightning some years ago, which obliterated everything electronic and electric on board except the engine starting system. Unlike me, he had no backups to anything.

Did he freak out? My Dad is not the greatest navigator in the world, but he didn't freak out. In fact he continued his cruise using a HBC and paper charts, windex, etc., and basic pilotage, without any electronic navigation aids of any kind, no sextant, and no way to know his position except three point fixes, and if I know him, he didn't even bother to do those. When in doubt, he just stood off. No big deal. The worst thing was he couldn't make ice for his martinis, and I bet he would have stayed out another week if it hadn't been for that.