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Old 18-03-2011, 06:49   #76
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

I thought the joy was in the sailing, not scaring the bejeebers out of your guests or getting into situations that you shouldn't be in. I think the butt wiping comment is better suited to Sailing Anarchy too.
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Old 18-03-2011, 06:59   #77
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

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Perhaps you have a different type of GPS. The new iPad types of devices are great at sharing routes and looking around, planning with others. And it can easily have 2,000 charts loaded.

It's also quite easy to plan the next day's or afternoon's route with the phone in your pocket when you're at a restaurant or waiting for your wife to try on that one last dress in the local shop. That same phone will provide weather predictions, sea state, communication with friends, and can easily show you every other route you've been on recently. And while you can find a possible anchorage on your paper charts, your electronic gizmos will tell you what the last 10 people experienced there along with suggestions about what is in the area.

None of that is practical, if even possible, with paper.
Generation Gap!!

I do have a cell phone, and only turn it on to make a call, which ain't too often. Occasionally even check for messages. Have a 18" screen laptop, but it doesn't compare to paper charts when four people are sitting around a table. And of course 63 year old eyes need to be taken into account.
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Old 18-03-2011, 07:06   #78
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pirate Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

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I thought the joy was in the sailing, not scaring the bejeebers out of your guests or getting into situations that you shouldn't be in. I think the butt wiping comment is better suited to Sailing Anarchy too.
You;ve one thing right... the joy is in the sailing... and the skills to do it right...
All I see is a load of folk with their little toys giving them a false sense of confidence that gets them into the type of situation that scares the bejeebers outa 'guests'....
But hell... you'll have excuses for the mistakes won't you...
it won't be YOUR fault... its the GPS, CP, Radar...
Whereas for me... its my fault and mine alone.. coz I screwed up on paper...
I thought the butt wipe was appropriate... its what your always pushing folks to do with their paper charts to push your programs...
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Old 18-03-2011, 07:47   #79
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

The obvious (to me anyway) advantage of paper charts is size. I can spread out a chart of the entire Bahamas for planning or in discussions with other cruisers. A set of dividers gets me close enough on distance to get a good estimate of the time needed to transit from one place to another.

As soon as you start zooming out on the digital display it becomes darn near unusable, there is so little detail.

I do run both a laptop and a chart plotter, but don't ask me to give up paper charts.

We just had two other couples over to discuss a Bahamas cruise, trying to get us all around an iPad? Get serious.

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Old 18-03-2011, 08:22   #80
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

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We just had two other couples over to discuss a Bahamas cruise, trying to get us all around an iPad? Get serious.
I've done the same things with paper charts and electronic - crowded around a table to show a place, route, or area of interest. Six people around a single chart is not something that works all that well no matter what the single media is.

A couple of people at a time can easily view an iPad. It's also quite simple to share the device around a table too. Somehow I have a feeling you might not have ever done it.

The new iPad2 will additionally allow you to display the view onto your TV so that a much larger group could view and discuss it at the same time. Moving to the electronic world means you could just as easily be discussing the charts and sharing the view with others who aren't even at your location - perhaps even other boats in another anchorage. Try doing that with paper.

So "get serious" - yeah, I am. It's not something that's coming. It's here. No one says you have to use it any more than you're required to have a GPS. It's just an option with incredible capabilities that are just starting to unfold that many (most?) haven't considered...
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Old 20-03-2011, 05:41   #81
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

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I have paper, laptops (multiple), iPhones (multiple), and an iPad 3G among many other smartphones onboard. I like having a set of old paper charts. I can't honestly say I use them much any longer although they are always out and we're always tracking with them, especially on overnight passages. We liveaboard for 9 months a year and never stay all season in a single place - we like to put on miles.

I have to admit that I like the iPad a lot. I didn't think I'd actually use it much (I'm a developer and wanted to experiment with it). I find so many things for my boat gravitating to the iPad (manuals, charts, video, other media). I can see it being a wonderful paper chart replacement in many ways.

The lightening strike argument doesn't hold much water with respect to the iPad. My iPad isn't connected to anything unless it's being charged and you don't have to do that like so many other devices. The battery life on it is amazing. In fact, I have an external charger that will completely recharge the iPad while not connected to any power (Google "new trent" for more information). Using that completely removes the chance of a lightening strike effecting the iPad. Heck, in most cases, if there's a storm nearby, unplug everything mobile anyway.

I think there's more danger in having paper charts fall overboard or drowned by a crashing glass-breaking wave than seeing all mobile electronics fry in an electrical storm. I'd rather have multiple iPhones with separate chart systems than rely on a single paper system because of that.

I think that sailors of 2030 will look back and think how backwards we were to cruise around with so much paper onboard (for many functions) much like we look at RDF's and wonder why anyone would have bought such a thing.
With respect by 2030 all the current systems and their offspring will be much better tested for longevity and we'll probably be in a better position to have more confidence in them, or not.

IMHO it's just too soon to rely solely on electronics and any way I love the tactile feel and the satisfaction of working everything out on paper charts. I've been doing it since 1964 and it feels right. But that's just me. There's room for all

I do have electronics for backup, connected to my VHF(DSC) radio, though, and very occasionally for speed.
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Old 20-03-2011, 10:08   #82
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

Sorry if I missed this in a previous post but I read em all and nowhere found the word "PRINTER" and an inverter?
Sure,I've a laptop+gps humming along if it's warranted or interesting,but really I like to:
... print a few charts out ahead of time,put em in a plastic bag(a laminator would be better) for day use.I find these easier to use in the rain and in the dinghy and no worries about doodads sliding off the seats into the cockpit drains on a tack.No worries about screen visibility and all that. Oh,I still have real charts tucked away in order so the top ones are "where I'm at" roughly...these are now saved from cockpit abuse by the printer...

PS photographic paper is worth experimenting with...stiffer,clearer,better ink retention but I can still use some of the printed paper ones that didn't get wrecked a year later..
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Old 20-03-2011, 10:42   #83
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
You;ve one thing right... the joy is in the sailing... and the skills to do it right...
All I see is a load of folk with their little toys giving them a false sense of confidence that gets them into the type of situation that scares the bejeebers outa 'guests'....
But hell... you'll have excuses for the mistakes won't you...
it won't be YOUR fault... its the GPS, CP, Radar...
Whereas for me... its my fault and mine alone.. coz I screwed up on paper...
I thought the butt wipe was appropriate... its what your always pushing folks to do with their paper charts to push your programs...
You're entirely correct Boatman. But we older folks must step aside and let these young bucks make their own mistakes.

My grandfather claimed the world started to go to hell with the introduction of the automobile, go figure.
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Old 20-03-2011, 12:57   #84
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

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You're entirely correct Boatman. But we older folks must step aside and let these young bucks make their own mistakes.

My grandfather claimed the world started to go to hell with the introduction of the automobile, go figure.

And the goat ropers complained when the first carts were being used.
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Old 20-03-2011, 16:20   #85
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Re: Damn Paper Charts . . . I Hate Paper Charts !

I don't think we should be making judgements on whether someone is more or less of a sailor because they do or do not use paper charts and whether they can or cannot do the navigation techniques that are required in the use of paper charts, or even whether or not they can do celestial navigation.

Unless we are paid to go to sea we do it for the shear enjoyment and the satisfaction we get from arriving at our destination safely.

I personally don't care if this person has a motor boat, or a sailing boat or how he gets his enjoyment from his activity. I prefer to use the traditional methods as I find that more interesting, I look forward to taking my sights and comparing that with my DR, and GPS (yes I do have one). The best uses I have for a GPS is to connect to my VHF(DSC) radio and to check my position after a period of heavy weather.

Everyone else can do as they please, and I genuinely respect that.
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