Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 30-03-2007, 18:09   #16
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Good for you, Bob! Have fun in Abacos!

My wife and I were discussing the same thing you mention when I noticed my anchor light was $60 at WM and $40 at Defender. Understanding the most basic of business (fixed costs per unit sold, not taking variable cost per unit sold into account), we reasoned that WM was making a KILLING compared to Defender on a per-item basis. Of course, there is the matter of the expensive WM real estate costs, but still...

Hate to say it, but my future plans include shopping at tiny chandleries at marinas (to support them) and shopping at Defender. I've had a West Advantage card since the early 90's, but I'm afraid I'm not going to use it so much anymore.

Much like Whole Foods... it's just another store that got too big, lost its original purpose and is just a $$ generator for the shareholders. (putting aside urge to bash capitalism again... ha ha ha)

When your garlic, other foods and pet foods are all coming from China too... there's just something that's not right.
__________________

__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2007, 02:36   #17
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wahoo Sails
I haven't seen this first hand, but have been told that in a year when Worst lost $200 million ... they paid out over $200 million in "bonuses". Gee ... what's wrong with this picture?
Rewarding failure??

I am glad their is someone else out their who also thinks something like this it not "normal".............on and off for the last couple of years I have been working at a subsidiary of a large bank.........this part of the organisation has also been paying out bonuses over the last few years, despite not only making no money (how the f#ck can a bank not make money??!!) but having also destroyed the business through what I can only describe as sheer stupidity.........

I do sometimes wonder if it is me who is mad......but after 20 odd years in the industry and experiances at many many other similar companies I know it is them and not me, but it is amazing how things can become "normal" over time and even I do start to question myself now and again - but I am always reassued by the fact that they make no money and the business continues to shrink / dissapear.

Of course I have told folk what the problems are, and how to fix them (they employ me to tell them)........but it's the old saying "you can lead a horse to water etc"......and not being part of the organisation I can't actually force changes through, and bearing in mind the folk who pay my invoices are part of the problem their is only so much I can say - albeit I know I have (as usual!!) actually said way too much already

It's good to rant
__________________

David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31-03-2007, 09:53   #18
Registered User
 
zephyr4's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Michigan
Boat: Catalina 27
Posts: 68
Images: 2
As a high school science teacher, I will have to second David's sentiment noting only that the symptoms appear early in many people.
__________________
Our Pictures and Sailing Movies:
http://home.earthlink.net/~zephyr4
zephyr4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 05:45   #19
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
And to add to this thread:

I got a 1/2" shackle from WM (the Chinese one). My previous Italian shackle was marked 1/2" as well. Turns out the Chinese one won't fit into my chain. So... I ordered the next size down, 7/16, which was a Crosby model. Now THAT shackle is floating around in my chain link.

What I don't understand is how shackles can run different sizes, like shoes. My chain is not identifiable (even by the manufacturer, ACCO), so I'm pretty boned here.

What ever happened to good marine chandleries where you could walk in with a part, compare it to others, and buy the appropriate one?

They don't have those in NJ. Does anyone know if they exist in Long Island?
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 06:11   #20
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Also, does anyone know how to measure the size of a chain? I don't see any resources online for guiding you through that process?

I know a 1/2" Italian shackle fit in nice and snug. I know a 1/2" Chinese West Marine one is too thick and won't fit in. The Crosby (Canadian) 7/16" one fits in the chain but is leaves a lot of open space, where the old Italian 1/2" one fit snuggly.

Anyone else finding it impossible to size their shackle? Well, I guess you all probably know the size of your chain, which is always helpful too. Mine is a chain from ACCO marked "SL". It was some Simpson Lawrence chain that came with the windlass, I suspect. That's all they could figure out at Simpson Lawrence or ACCO.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 06:36   #21
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,579
Images: 240
NACM* WELDED STEEL CHAIN SPECIFICATIONS
National Association of Chain Manufacturers: welded chain

The dimensional requirements of the various chain sizes and designations are given on page 8, in Table 1 (G 30, Proof Coil), & Table 2 (G 43, High Test).

* National Association lf Chain Manufacturers
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 07:13   #22
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Excellent link, thank you very much, Gord.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 11:26   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle area (Bremerton)
Boat: C&C Landfall 39 center cockpit "Anahita"
Posts: 1,076
Images: 6
The weakest link

Hey Sean, in addition to the brands Btrayfors mentioned I also use Campbell shackles and chain. All of the good USA brand galvanized chain shackles are stamped with info and the pins color coded and stamped.

Like you, I had previously picked up a shackle that turned out to be made in China with physical indications of inferiority in quality. I just cannot use them on my anchor system.

Becuase the weakest link in the anchor system is often the shackle one just cannot skimp on the quality for that item and still sleep, can one?

I measured a Campbell 5/8" shackle and it measures 5/8" including the plating. The pin measures 3/4" including the plating to within a few mills.

Talking to riggers they claim that they are not allowed to use chain shackles without the correct color that rates them for safe use in lifting items that humans might walk under. I've seen red, blue and yellow pin colors yet do not know just what color means what.
__________________
"I don't think there'll be a return journey Mr. Frodo". Samwise Gamgee
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 13:11   #24
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,579
Images: 240
I believe that Crosby, Campbell, & Columbus-McKinnon shackles have their Working Load Limit embossed on every shackle.
Each have several grades of shackle. Hoisting shackles have the highest comparative WLL, but are often manufactured from alloys unsuitable for marine use.
There is no formal convention regarding pin colour.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2007, 13:26   #25
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Gord,

"alloys unsuitable for marine use"

Such as....??

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 01:46   #26
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,579
Images: 240
You caught me in a couple of overstatements*.

Hoisting (G80 & G100) chains & fittings are manufactured from hardened and tempered alloys (Peer-Alloy, Herc-Alloy, etc). I don’t know the composition of these alloys, but Peer-Alloy, for one, has a comparatively high carbon content, as well as containing various other alloying elements. The chain is quenched and tempered before (hardened) proof testing.

To preserve their overhead hoisting rating, the chains must be maintained in a pristine condition, without physical defects, such as nicks, scratches, distortions, wear, or corrosion.
These qualities would be difficult (if not impossible) to maintain in marine use (anchor rode).

Because the ultimate tensile strength of alloy hoisting chain & shackles are over twice that of ordinary steel chain, they may still be adequate for use in an anchor rode assembly (with a de-rated WLL). Be careful when mixing metals underwater (ie: G80 shackle /w g3/4 chain, /w ? anchor).

* I overstated, both:
- what I know about hoisting chains (by implication)
- the unsuitability of G80/100 chains for marine use
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 06:16   #27
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Thanks to Gord's link, I was able to determine that I do indeed have 3/8" galvanized ACCO chain that was sold with the Simpson Lawrence Sea Tiger Manual Windlass I have.

Thus, I was able to find the SWL of the chain. I have one size too small of a shackle right now (7/16 from Crosby and stamped with the SWL, and a nice load-tested red pin). I will use this temporarily (for about a week) while I go to the next spot, from which I will search for a
1/2" Crosby or similar shackle. I feel safer using one size too small that was at least properly rated than the unknown "soft metal" Chinese shackle.

Oddly, the Crosby 7/16 shackle is physically much smaller, but weights MORE than the Chinese 1/2"!!
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 09:06   #28
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Gord:

Didn't mean to "expose" your overstatements. I'm also perplexed at the oft conflicting things I've heard and learned through considerable surfing of anchor shackle sites and discussions.

Here's my take, FWIW:

1. Alloy shackles are MUCH stronger than the normal galvanized shackles one finds at WM, and meet a number of Federal specifications;

2. While some say they are perhaps more "brittle" and won't stand up to the kind of jerking sometimes present on a deployed chain anchor rode, I just don't buy that. The "jerking" loads present on an anchor chain -- even in the worst conditions -- are unlikely to come anywhere near the force needed to break a properly sized alloy shackle. More likely, your chain would break and/or your deck cleats would pull out.

3. I'm not much worried about the mixing of metals underwater as far as anchors are concerned. The shackles I've seen and used in almost 5 decades of sailing have almost always been "mixed", i.e., they aren't matched to either the chain or the anchor. Yet, I've never seen one break or show physical signs of deterioration due to metal mix. If I were going to set up a MOORING, that would be different, since it's underwater 24/7 for many years. Most anchors never see that kind of underwater use.

4. I have seen s/s shackles distort and bust, not on anchors but on my boom. I remember one lively day in the Drake Channel with the wind howling when my 3/8" s/s shackle on the main sheet let go: fun in the city!

Bottom line: I think alloy shackles are the way to go, since they are massively strong.

Sean: I doubt that your 3/8" chain will take a 1/2" shackle. Many of the better shackles have pin diameters which are larger than the rest of the shackle, and shackles are rated not by pin size but by shank size. So, e.g., a 7/16" Crosby or CM alloy shackle would have a 1/2" pin size. That's the biggest one you're gonna fit to a 3/8" chain, IMO.

Here are some useful shackle links:

http://www.thecrosbygroup.com/produc...g/body_061.htm

Shackles, Alloy Steel

Grainger Industrial Supply

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-04-2007, 12:31   #29
cruiser

Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 4,525
Thank you, Bill. Excellent advice. What is odd is that the old shackle was marked 1/2" before I cut through it to end-over the chain. (it was frozen)

Thank you for the info.
__________________
ssullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-04-2007, 12:27   #30
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Seattle area (Bremerton)
Boat: C&C Landfall 39 center cockpit "Anahita"
Posts: 1,076
Images: 6
High carbon shackle disadvantages

There are two problems with the high tensile strength high carbon content shackles and chain for use in ground tackle. They are not plated with zinc sufficiently thick to last long before exposing the steel. Once the steel is exposed to the salt water corrosion is faster and more insideous than that which occurs with milder steel (from my old materials science class).

Note that corrosion starts at surface defects. Surface defects are created by the crystal structure under stress made by the carbon in the steel. Corrosion can migrate through small pin holes an expand inside along the lines of stress making visual inspection much more difficult than with milder steel.

I read some time ago the problem of making high quality shackles designed for ground tackle. The manufacturer knows just how thick to make the zinc for a reasonable life and must compensate for the pin male and female threads for the zinc and still retain a reasonable load rating. Too thick a zinc and corresponding pin thread decreased size and the pin can pull out of the male shackle threads. That is the compromise that must be carefully optomized.

For short term use there is no doubt that the higher strength high carbon steel shackles are stronger but when does one know just when they become actually weaker? If one is willing to change them with dilligence then O.K. otherwise beware.
__________________

__________________
"I don't think there'll be a return journey Mr. Frodo". Samwise Gamgee
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Marine Diesel Links GordMay Engines and Propulsion Systems 3 13-06-2008 13:58
West Marine Sto-Away Seat? exposure General Sailing Forum 4 20-05-2004 21:07
Marine News GordMay The Library 0 20-05-2004 02:57



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 23:52.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.