A dinghy as a lifeboat

[IslandHopper]

Originally Posted by fish53

Nice but for many not very realistic. This is much like discussing firefighting equipment, you certainly need some but if your boat has limited space as many do piling safety equipment in every available space makes no sense. Sure I'd like a dewatering pump and I'd like an SCBA but if the dewatering pump is on top of the SCBA when I need it I may succumb to smoke inhalation before I can don it. The same with having some sort of station bill describing duties and muster locations, my boats 28 feet you'll know where to be because I'll tell you. No just having a buttload of safety equipment doesn't make you safe, having the right equipment for all purposes appropriate for the vessel that's going to carry them and the knowledge to use them to best affect is in my opinion best. I find this interesting in a thread where some decry the inconvenience of carrying a life raft to much to tolerate.

Which was the whole point of my posting it.....

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by fish53

Nice but for many not very realistic. This is much like discussing firefighting equipment, you certainly need some but if your boat has limited space as many do piling safety equipment in every available space makes no sense. Sure I'd like a dewatering pump and I'd like an SCBA but if the dewatering pump is on top of the SCBA when I need it I may succumb to smoke inhalation before I can don it. The same with having some sort of station bill describing duties and muster locations, my boats 28 feet you'll know where to be because I'll tell you. No just having a buttload of safety equipment doesn't make you safe, having the right equipment for all purposes appropriate for the vessel that's going to carry them and the knowledge to use them to best affect is in my opinion best. I find this interesting in a thread where some decry the inconvenience of carrying a life raft to much to tolerate.

I’m one of those “decrying” the need for a liferaft for coastal cruising, so having a 350 pound $3000 USD 44,000 gph electric macerating trash pump onboard.... is mind boggling to me. I wouldn’t know where to put the thing..... even on our 62 with a 12.5kw generator.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Where do you keep the thing (trash pump)? I thought you were the one obsessing about excess weight? We have a large macerating bilge pump that weighs in at only around 20 pounds. Why is yours so heavy?

Make, model and picture please.

After looking online at Honda trash pumps, it looks like one would need to have at least a four inch hose and be the size of your stern locker in order to move 24,000 gallons per hour.... so yours is actually larger?

Having one of these would be useless, if you kept it in the lazarette.



Mine fits neatly into a deep section of the bilge, and lives there. No need to move it in order to use it. Procedure for using it is to get out the rolled-up fire hose, put it on, lead it out the companionway and over the rail. Plug it directly into the generator (I have not completed the special box on top of the generator which disconnects the boat electrical system (to prevent shorts in case of flooding) and gives a waterproof connection for the pump.


It's heavy, and probably unnecessarily so, but where it is located far below the waterline it contributes to stability -- it's effectively ballast.


One great thing about this kind of pump is that you might not only save your own boat, you might save someone else's. Hardly anyone is really prepared to pump out a flooded boat. Standard bilge pumps are practically useless because of low real capacity and propensity to clog. Because of this, the U.S. Coast Guard have dewatering pumps which they bring out to flooded boats.


I don't know the model number -- but I'll dig it out when I can, in case someone else wants to acquire one of these.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I’m one of those “decrying” the need for a liferaft for coastal cruising, so having a 350 pound $3000 USD 44,000 gph electric macerating trash pump onboard.... is mind boggling to me. I wouldn’t know where to put the thing..... even on our 62 with a 12.5kw generator.

Well, mine weighs 30kg, not 350 pounds, and cost a few hundred pounds.


I wouldn't bother with something like this for coastal cruising, either, but that's not what I have been doing. Being in ice-cold water a thousand miles from help really focuses your mind on multiple ways of staying out of the drink. Even being in the middle of the North Sea -- you would want to have all means practical.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, mine weighs 30kg, not 350 pounds, and cost a few hundred pounds.


I wouldn't bother with something like this for coastal cruising, either, but that's not what I have been doing. Being in ice-cold water a thousand miles from help really focuses your mind on multiple ways of staying out of the drink. Even being in the middle of the North Sea -- you would want to have all means practical.

According to what I found online, in order to move “44,000 gph” the pump would need to be much larger, wider diameter hose, heavier and six times the cost in order to do the job.

I’d like to know the manufacturer, model and install info to possibly buy one for the 62 if it’s as you describe it. Are you sure yours doesn’t move 4,400 gph rather than 44,000gph? Our present system can move 3,700 gph.

[fish53]

Dewatering takes place after damage control, screwing around with a portable pump on a boat wallowing around in almost any sea when stopping the flooding is paramount doesn't make much sense. If you're offshore and are taking water at rate requiring a pump such as this you have bigger problems. If you can control the flooding the size pump you remove the water with is of little consequence. A permanently mounted manual pump of reasonable size makes more sense. Imagine the condition of a portable engine pump after being stowed in a locker or worse on deck for last year and a half. What if it doesn't start, you use all the fuel and can't access your tanks for more or what you have is now contaminated with seawater? Complicated and ponderous responses to an emergency on a small boat are an invitation for a swim. It's worth noting that these pumps require a non-collapsible suction hose that is as much of a stowage headache as the pump. The most effective and readily available piece of emergency equipment is you with a clear head and the knowledge to use what you have to save your vessel otherwise all the equipment in the world isn't going to help you. It's been said the best pump is a scared man with a bucket.

[fish53]

"Having one of these would be useless, if you kept it in the lazarette.



Mine fits neatly into a deep section of the bilge, and lives there."

I'm trying to figure out the utility of keeping a portable engine pump in the bilge to respond to rapid flooding? Install one these and all you have to do is stick the handle in up on deck and pump as long as your arms hold out. They work fairly easy, move a lot of water and are extremely reliable. You can put it next to your life raft in case you can't keep up with the rising water.

[RUSTYNAIL]

After working for the USCG for 42 years, I have plenty of sad stories that could have easily had a better outcome with proper preparation. If you are farther away from shore than you'd like to swim, the number one priority is a 406 EPIRB that floats straight up with the antenna out of the water. The EPIRB is the simplest and the most powerful switch that a civilian can activate. Within 52 seconds of activation, notification starts happening world wide, and if needed, millions of dollars of aircraft start warming up their engines to rescue you. Next you need to get yourself out of the water if you absolutely have to abandon your vessel. Rules: NOTIFICATION--DISTRESS POSITION-MAKE YOURSELF VISIBLE--STAY ALIVE. A 406 EPIRB does most of this, staying alive in cold or bad weather has many alternatives. 406 PLB's do the same thing but most don't float properly to guarantee the signal gets to the satellites or the the direction finder in the aircraft. I carry a PLB and a float free EPIRB with gps position and I'm too cheap to buy a life raft for coastal cruising in warm water. If you want more on this I'm happy to respond to any questions.

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by MartinR

People get scared, feel unsafe with 2 feet of waters sloshing around in the boat and think they are safer in a life raft......

Probably life rafts have killed as many people as they have saved.

Any data to back that up?

[deluxe68]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

No.....

Most of the 79 Fastnet abandonments into life rafts were due to fatigue and seasickness combined with poor judgement. Most of the motherships survived even without the crews, many of whom perished while trying to get into life rafts or survive in life rafts which were torn apart.

Read the book.

Not just fatigue, some of the (under 40’) boats were getting tossed around so much that the crew sustained serious injuries.

[RUSTYNAIL]

It takes in water training to learn how to get into a life raft in rough seas. A buddy system helps, and don't expect the life raft to inflate right side up. I've done life raft entry training many times in a pool. Life rafts are responsible for saving many people in all kinds of weather. Once inside, read the instruction book. Don't forget extra glasses in your ditch bag. Manually inflate the floor to keep your butt warm. Have the radar reflector ready. Ask to insert a 406 PLB in the raft so you can go home for lunch. If you can find someone that does life raft training do it. AMSEA is a start.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by RUSTYNAIL

It takes in water training to learn how to get into a life raft in rough seas. A buddy system helps, and don't expect the life raft to inflate right side up. I've done life raft entry training many times in a pool. Life rafts are responsible for saving many people in all kinds of weather. Once inside, read the instruction book. Don't forget extra glasses in your ditch bag. Manually inflate the floor to keep your butt warm. Have the radar reflector ready. Ask to insert a 406 PLB in the raft so you can go home for lunch. If you can find someone that does life raft training do it. AMSEA is a start.

I've gotten into rafts a couple of times in weather most hope to never see and some depends on the raft's design and some on technique, the same applies to righting an overturned raft. As you so rightly said pool practice is helpful but of course doesn't replicate the conditions you may be entering a raft in. My raft boarding's also were done wearing a survival suit which in some ways helps such as remaining afloat by the raft and the buoyancy helping a little in the process of lifting yourself in but they are cumbersome and most have gloves that are sometimes hard to grip with. Once in the raft expect to vomit soon afterward as well as the need to relive yourself and toilet facilities are self contained if you get my meaning. Survival under conditions like these take planning, practice and preparation, the raft itself isn't going to save you, that's up to you. I'll take this opportunity to once again voice my reservations concerning the concept of a dingy replacing a raft. If you don't want a raft at least have survival suits in any but the warmest water a pair costs less than a dingy and with minimal care last for years.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by RUSTYNAIL

After working for the USCG for 42 years, I have plenty of sad stories that could have easily had a better outcome with proper preparation. If you are farther away from shore than you'd like to swim, the number one priority is a 406 EPIRB that floats straight up with the antenna out of the water. The EPIRB is the simplest and the most powerful switch that a civilian can activate. Within 52 seconds of activation, notification starts happening world wide, and if needed, millions of dollars of aircraft start warming up their engines to rescue you. Next you need to get yourself out of the water if you absolutely have to abandon your vessel. Rules: NOTIFICATION--DISTRESS POSITION-MAKE YOURSELF VISIBLE--STAY ALIVE. A 406 EPIRB does most of this, staying alive in cold or bad weather has many alternatives. 406 PLB's do the same thing but most don't float properly to guarantee the signal gets to the satellites or the the direction finder in the aircraft. I carry a PLB and a float free EPIRB with gps position and I'm too cheap to buy a life raft for coastal cruising in warm water. If you want more on this I'm happy to respond to any questions.

EPIRBS are wonderful, I wouldn't be here without having had one but while essential it's only one element in survival. Yes help may indeed be on the way quickly but where you are and the conditions have a huge effect on time. If you're in the water with a PFD on time is very important to you, a survival suit gives you time and a raft with the suit even more. 21.0-15.5 degrees C (70-60 degrees F)
12 hours
15.5-10.0 degrees C (60-50 degrees F)
6 hours
10.0-4.5 degrees C (50-40 degrees F)
1 hour
4.5 degrees C (40 degrees F) and below
less than 1 hour
Note: Wearing an anti-exposure suit may increase these times up to a maximum of 24 hours.

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by fish53

Rather than give up 40 cubic feet of space I'd consider an inflatable option.

Given the large number of unusable spaces such as the upper outboard corners of lockers, the space under the Quater-berths and the spcace under the stern deck I can get to about 20cf before I start significantly impacting storage.

I’ve found VittleVaults which are sealing pet food containers in various sizes. Using these for storage under the V-berth I can get another 8-12cf.
This puts me within spitting distance of my goal.

[fish53]

Originally Posted by Adelie

Given the large number of unusable spaces such as the upper outboard corners of lockers, the space under the Quater-berths and the spcace under the stern deck I can get to about 20cf before I start significantly impacting storage.

I’ve found VittleVaults which are sealing pet food containers in various sizes. Using these for storage under the V-berth I can get another 8-12cf.
This puts me within spitting distance of my goal.

Something to consider when using plastic containers for floatation is they crush rather quickly when immersed a relatively small distance from the surface. A vessel awash may have containers in a lower compartment that can't stand the depth and then you lose progressively more floatation as the boat sinks. You may want do a few experiments in a pool or such to be sure your containers work at the expected depth. By the way closed cell foam acts the same.