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Old 31-10-2015, 13:46   #16
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

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Originally Posted by NahanniV View Post
I've seen a few images of booms with cradles attached to the sides.

I assume this is to help with furling, instead of lazy jacks?
Sort of like a poor mans Park Avenue boom.

Anybody know what they are called ?

How well they work ?

Cheers,
JM.
I believe they are often called a "winged boom". On my list of things to make one day. They can have a sail cover that is pulled along a small sail track inside the top of each wing. You can see some online where they claim a small improvement in sail efficiency as an end plate working something like the winglets on A320 etc wing tips that cut down on tip turbulence flying at a higher angle of incidence at altitude. I think though the main benefit with the boom is sail handling.


Meanwhile I'm using a stack pack which works well for sail handling. A stack pack though does deteriorate over the years and I'm on my second one. A winged boom made of CF to keep the weight down should keep going, though more expensive.
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Old 31-10-2015, 14:31   #17
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

01kiwijohn, Go over to the Searunner thread in the multihull section and ask your question to the guys about available Searunners. Or, perhaps, send a PM to Mark Johnson who is pretty connected to the 34 scene. Good luck in your search!
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Old 31-10-2015, 15:00   #18
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

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Originally Posted by YachtBroker View Post
The Park avenue boom idea came out of mega yacht sailboats where the main is so big that it just can't stack on the boom. The Beneteau 60 I saw in annap this year had a park avenue style wide boom. Picture attached (I hope). It's becoming more popular. Although a boat of that size I'd much rather have in mast furling or in boom.

If you want nice mainsail control a Strong track (tides marine) and a dutchman system work super well on most main sails and the dutchman just contains it on the boom and you don't have to go forward to even put a sail tie on. You also get the added benefit that you can reef in just about any wind and on a Catalina 380 I owned some time back I installed one on I could raise the main by hand without a winch to the mast head.

Also with these added on boom wings, like installing mast steps on a mast all the way up, you are drilling a hundred plus holes (usually all in a line). I'd rather have as few holes in my spars as possible.
You raised a question on both? Is the structural integrity compromised on the mast or the boom? I should think so but is it significant?
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Old 31-10-2015, 18:06   #19
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

A very light weight, inexpensive, simple alternative to catch large sections of sail is to use "horns". Same shape as a batten, made from flat carbon or round tubing. Attach below the boom, run the lazy jacks to the ends of the horns, use two or three pairs of horns. Sorry no pic.
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Old 01-11-2015, 02:29   #20
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

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Originally Posted by YachtBroker View Post
The Park avenue boom idea came out of mega yacht sailboats where the main is so big that it just can't stack on the boom. The Beneteau 60 I saw in annap this year had a park avenue style wide boom. Picture attached (I hope). It's becoming more popular. Although a boat of that size I'd much rather have in mast furling or in boom.

If you want nice mainsail control a Strong track (tides marine) and a dutchman system work super well on most main sails and the dutchman just contains it on the boom and you don't have to go forward to even put a sail tie on. You also get the added benefit that you can reef in just about any wind and on a Catalina 380 I owned some time back I installed one on I could raise the main by hand without a winch to the mast head.

Also with these added on boom wings, like installing mast steps on a mast all the way up, you are drilling a hundred plus holes (usually all in a line). I'd rather have as few holes in my spars as possible.

Yachtbroker, When are you suggesting that Park Avenue booms became popular? Because unless my memory is slipping, they didn't start to be seen much until say, around 2,000'ish.

AKA about a half a decade+ or so after the boom wings like those posted by the OP made their appearance on Open 60's.
I say as much, particularly as, making more complex shapes out of carbon (Park Avenues) hadn't evolved that far until the dates which I stated. Particularly in booms, which can take a beating, shock load wise. Of which, carbon fiber isn't fond (SIC). Particularly in the highly stressed; vang, & gooseneck areas.

That, & around the time frame which I'm stating, the spar manufacturers who work/specialize in carbon fiber, were just starting to gain real inroads into the market place. It having taken them a bit of time in order to work out the kinks in said type of spar manufacture. And to gain consumer trust, outside of high end racing circles.

As to reefing, how do the products which you're advertising help much vs. just running a slick, Spectra reefing line, through a small block or Antal ring, attached to each reef point's tack & clew? Or even just through the cringles built into the tack of the sail.
As in my experience, with a well tuned setup like that, the sail pretty much takes care of itself, knock on wood. And said setup has worked for a good number of long distance voyagers & racers as well.

That, & I'm curious to know the significance of being able to raise the main on a 38'er by hand. As I've routinely done such on an 80' Maxi without much trouble. This, with a sail set in a bolt rope track. Which has FAR more friction than a Tides system.

Oh, & FYI, those boom wings are Welded on, at least as far as I can see. So, no screw holles to fret over. And keep in mind, the thousands of racing booms with lines of huge lightening holes in them, for the last 40+ years. Scores of which I've sailed on.
That & few, if any spars that I'm aware of have had much trouble with the of holes for their mast steps, going rom deck level to the masthead. Although from a theoretically engineering purview, you do have a point about such.
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Old 01-11-2015, 03:15   #21
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I am swooning in delight at my version of these units. Even the two first ones were strong enough to do pull-ups with complete confidence, and I am a big guy. Stack packs are cool, but they don't separate the lazy jacks far enough. But, to tell the truth, I had been considering making a composite tee-boom, then my rigger friend Fritz Richardson, a guy with excellent multihull street cred, told me of a welder friend of his that was producing these "baskets" (or whatever name will eventually evolve), I really began to think about the possibilities. Having a solid handhold, not having to take off and put on the sailcover, being able to have the boat name stitched permanently, high up, having an efficient way to capture lots of clean water, and being able to drop the main (because I'm adding a Tuff Luff track) quickly into the basket without furling, unless I'm reefing, all of these just seem to shine for me. We'll see how it works out. My boat is my playground, so I tend to do things to it that make me giggle. Kind of like my RIB launch/retrieve system....
Roy, I'm a fan of form follows function & all, still... On these new contraptions of yours, might I offer up a “think” or three. If for no other reason than to make them a touch more ‘purdy ‘(as a friend of mine would say).

How about taking a piece of aluminum plate for each leg which sticks out off of the boom, & forming it into a triangular gusset. Shaped pretty much like a piece of pizza. With the “crust” end of the slice, welded to the boom.
Then take a piece of aluminum tubing, machine a longitudinal slot into it, & weld it to the top side of the gusset.
Followed by running a horizontal bar, connecting the top edge/point of all of the gussets, for the length of the boom.

All of this, with the gussets welded on at an angle of about 30 degrees above the horizontal, so as to give you a nice wide capture space for the main.
And if you want to add to the CDI/aesthetic cool factor, you could machine a series of diminishingly smaller holes into the gussets, from base to tip. Plus, the holes would give you a few extra lashing options in a pinch. [btw, CDI = Chicks Dig It (it’s a long story)]

~ Or, if you like, the gussets could even be semi-crescent shaped. So that between the two sides, they somewhat resemble a boom crutch.

Ah, & with lazy jacks. If one puts the blocks for them on the spreaders, about 1' out from the mast, it should pretty much eliminate any sail feeding, or batten jamming issues. Assuming that you don't get "greedy", & try & run the lower ends too far out to the boom's end.
Also, attaching the lower ends of the "jax" will go even further towards eliminating any issues with them.


Although I can't say as I understand the seemingly endless comments about battens getting hung up in them. As I've never had such problems, in any of the boats I'v owned, delivered, or taught sailing on. It's something I'd have to see firsthand, in order to diagnose as to whether it's an equipment design problem, or one of technique, ie; boat or sail handling.
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Old 01-11-2015, 03:28   #22
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

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Originally Posted by Adrian NAMT View Post
A very light weight, inexpensive, simple alternative to catch large sections of sail is to use "horns". Same shape as a batten, made from flat carbon or round tubing. Attach below the boom, run the lazy jacks to the ends of the horns, use two or three pairs of horns. Sorry no pic.
Good point. It's a KISS, & very effective solution. I've even seen it done with sections of batten stock, mounted to wooden, or G10 blocks on the boom, in order to give them their required angular offset.
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Old 01-11-2015, 03:35   #23
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

Don't these contraptions prevent the flakes from flopping down? What's the point of this? This seems a solution to a non problem... there are many soft solutions to contain the sail when it is not hoisted. If I had 3 aboard one at the aft end, one at the mast and one controlling the halyard... there would be no need for any "system" to manage or control the main. And in reality... what's the big deal to spend a few minutes dropping and flaking a sail?

Color me confused.
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Old 01-11-2015, 07:02   #24
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

The Hunter, shown in the picture, was transformed by the addition of the "basket", which habitually was getting its battens fouled. And as far as aesthetics, that's still subject to personal taste (kind of like choosing a trimaran over a classic schooner). So, I'll follow up with some photos when I finish with the overhaul and re-rig (and have the new sail cover crafted).
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Old 03-11-2015, 12:44   #25
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

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Yachtbroker, When are you suggesting that Park Avenue booms became popular? Because unless my memory is slipping, they didn't start to be seen much until say, around 2,000'ish.

2000's? Try the 1900's. The term "Park Avenue boom" was coined to describe the enormous booms on the J-Boats of America's Cup fame.
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Old 03-11-2015, 16:11   #26
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Re: What do you call these mainsail furling "helpers" ? And do they work ?

Grateful, I was referring to boats that people actually buy. You are correct they have been around a long time or at least extra wide booms have been.
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