in-mar furling vs traditional mast

[hoppy]

At the very time I made the arrangements to fly to the other side of Greece to view what would become my boat, I was on the final day of a short charter to get the feel of sailing larger (for me) yacht (had not sailed for 20 years). I was on a Bavaria 38 with a Selden RF main. Whilst I thought the Selden unit seemed pretty neat, I just could not get over the feeling that something was missing when I looked up at the main. The negative roach just seemed so wrong.

I'm so happy my boat has a traditional main and upgrading to full battens and roller batcars just made it better. With the single line reefing on 3 reefs I almost never need to leave the cockpit when the wind picks up. My boats 40 ft and if I was to ever upsize I'd certainly want slab up to 50ft

[hoppy]

BTW why does in-boom reefing barely ever get a mention in threads like this and why doesn't it ever become the subject of a decent discussion?

They seem to be very common in the superyacht world and there seem to be quite a few companies making them for normal sailors yachts.

It should not matter to someone who is ordering a brand new yacht and has a budget for in-mast rolling and whilst they are expensive, retrofitting to a slab reef yacht is not an unreasonable option for some owners at least.

What's the catch?

Sure the boom is big and heavy, but it's got to be better than a mast with a roller inside.

[Juho]

Originally Posted by hoppy

BTW why does in-boom reefing barely ever get a mention in threads like this and why doesn't it ever become the subject of a decent discussion?

They seem to be very common in the superyacht world and there seem to be quite a few companies making them for normal sailors yachts.

It should not matter to someone who is ordering a brand new yacht and has a budget for in-mast rolling and whilst they are expensive, retrofitting to a slab reef yacht is not an unreasonable option for some owners at least.

What's the catch?

Sure the boom is big and heavy, but it's got to be better than a mast with a roller inside.

Good question. There are also some old systems for small boats where the sail is rolled around a rolling boom. You can have battens and roach. You can have a lighter mast with less windage. The sail remains visible, so you will lose some UV protection. In the "around boom" system you will lose the boom vang connection point. The rolling mechanics may not be as simple as for in mast system.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Juho

Good question. There are also some old systems for small boats where the sail is rolled around a rolling boom. You can have battens and roach. You can have a lighter mast with less windage. The sail remains visible, so you will lose some UV protection. In the "around boom" system you will lose the boom vang connection point. The rolling mechanics may not be as simple as for in mast system.

The main reason the "around the boom" reefing systems disappeared is that they were universally hard to operate, and that the sail shape was simply horrible when reefed. They were common when I started sailing, and everyone who had one hated them... most converted to some form of slab reefing asap.

The Hiscocks griped about them in some of their earlier writings, no one has ever (afaik) praised them.

The modern in boom systems bear little resemblance to those disasters!

Jim

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

The modern in boom systems bear little resemblance to those disasters!

And this confuses me as to why they are not talked about here more and why they are not on every manufacturers option list.




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[Juho]

Originally Posted by hoppy

And this confuses me as to why they are not talked about here more and why they are not on every manufacturers option list.

Why are they considered good for very large modern boats but no good for smaller modern boats?

Rolling headsails may have some padding that keeps the shape better for reefed sails. Wonder if that strategy would be useful in boom based systems too (there's more space above the boom than inside the mast).

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Well we have heard the closing arguments from the prosecution and the defence, the only thing now is for the jury (OP) to go and try it before reaching a verdict.

Pete

Wot ^^^HE^^^ Sed..!!
Personally I do not like them.. I'd rather an In-Boom system if push came to shove.. and I'm not crazy about them either..
As Pete7 says.. try it B4 you buy it.. nothing worse than following a herd then find you don't like where they're going.. and its to late to turn back..

[boatman61]

[QUOTE=Juho;2084794]Good question. There are also some old systems for small boats where the sail is rolled around a rolling boom. You can have battens and roach. You can have a lighter mast with less windage. The sail remains visible, so you will lose some UV protection. In the "around boom" system you will lose the boom vang connection point. The rolling mechanics may not be as simple as for in mast system.[/QUOTE]

Rubbish...!! Check out this Bruce Roberts 54 I delivered.. sorry its a bit small..
Also.. if you unclip the uphaul the sail rolls right into the boom and a small canvas panel each side of the alloy boom cover zips up to protect the sail when not in use.

[Juho]

Rubbish...!! Check out this Bruce Roberts 54 I delivered.. sorry its a bit small..
Also.. if you unclip the uphaul the sail rolls right into the boom and a small canvas panel each side of the alloy boom cover zips up to protect the sail when not in use.
[/QUOTE]

Can't see very well, but is that an above-the-boom (and not a around-the-boom) system?

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed!

Your perspective will be radically different, depending on where you sail. 20 knots is an average to calmish day up here, and that probably accounts for the universality of in-mast furling in these latitudes.

My Father's boat, in Florida, had in-mast furling, and I hated it every day. The average wind was probably 10 knots.

Totally different up here where lack of wind is, ahem, rarely a problem.

I think that's an ever so slight exaggeration mate...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Juho

Rubbish...!! Check out this Bruce Roberts 54 I delivered.. sorry its a bit small..
Also.. if you unclip the uphaul the sail rolls right into the boom and a small canvas panel each side of the alloy boom cover zips up to protect the sail when not in use.

Can't see very well, but is that an above-the-boom (and not a around-the-boom) system?[/QUOTE]

Much like the In Main there's a metal rod that rotates and the sail furls/unfurls around it.. the cover is just that and encloses the whole fixed at the goose neck fwd and the end with the roller system fixed internally..
Below is the Scheafer system

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by boatman61

I think that's an ever so slight exaggeration mate...

The statement should be properly qualified.

High end cruising boats (so excluding mass produced French and German jobs), made in the last 20 years (so excluding boats of earlier generations), and over 40 feet, are nearly 100% in mast furling, up here. That's a fact.

And even the French and German ones are 60% or 70% in mast furling, as sold in the U.K.

I discovered this, when I was shopping for a boat here. They just laughed at me, at Oyster, when I asked about slab reefing.



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[Juho]

Much like the In Main there's a metal rod that rotates and the sail furls/unfurls around it.. the cover is just that and encloses the whole fixed at the goose neck fwd and the end with the roller system fixed internally..
Below is the Scheafer system

Ok, that looks technically very much like the in-mast system. It seems that the cover is strong enough to take the load of the boom vang, and the internal rod is just for rolling the sail (as in the in-mast system).

The old around-the-boom system had a proper rolling boom, and sail wrapped around the boom (not inside it).

[hoppy]

This looks pretty good LeisureFurlâ„¢

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwVYnXN1pEM

[barnakiel]

I am not sure in-mast furling deserves as much criticism as it gets.

The system has been around for a while and is pretty mature. We all accept furling fore sails and there is hardly any difference when you think about in-mast furling mains.

Boats sailing as far apart as winter over in the Antarctic and St Barth Regatta effectively and safely deployed in-mast furling sails.

If any performance is lost then it may as well be said for poorly cut or set slab reefed sail. And if any sail area is lost, the furling mast can be built a couple of inches taller.

Reliability? I have never heard of an Amel not furling fine, nor have I heard any second thoughts from our friends who run a charter fleet of in-mast furling Bavarias. An ignorant sailor can jam anything and a mechanical failure is equally likely to happen in any other system onboard.

If someone is a sailing purist and wants to pull down that 1000 sq ft spinnaker by hand, they are free to do so. Other sailors will just furl if and drop it.

In-mast main sail furling is a proven and at times preferred method of handling the sail. It is optimised for convenience, not for performance. Pulling out heavy caliber performance guns against the system is pointless.

People who bash in-mast furling sails are the same who will go sailing under jibs without battens. Why. No question mark here intentionally.

b.