Hank-on Sails vs Furler ?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Good question, I don't know, free-flying furler? ;-) They use two spectra lines instead of the foil (at least, that was how they used to be) but I have only seen them for reachers, screamers, code-zero's etc.

cheers,
Nick.

Well, we have used our roller furling staysail in a hard Force 9 with good results. With gusts to 55. The staysail is 23m2 (249 square feet) so only one-third the size of the yankee jib. Both the sail (although you wrote earlier that a staysail is not a storm jib) and the furling gear worked flawlessly. The staysail is on a great big Selden Furlex 400 identical to te one which serves the 77m2 yankee, with the same type of 12mm Dyneema furling line. Very robust, way over-engineered for the size of the sail. I would feel comfortable using it in any conditions.

Remember also that if the sail is the right size for conditions, so that you are not trying to hold it partially furled, the stress on the furling gear is a lot less.

I suppose that it was made that way so that the staysail with furling gear would be suitable for a storm jib, and by the way the Moody manual recommends using the staysail as a storm jib.

In my opinion, if the furling gear is sized for the forces involved, there is no reason in the world not to use it for a storm jib. "Sized for the forces involved" means, I think, the same size as the furling gear you use for the main headsail. You're not going to have more force on your storm jib, than you do on your main headsail within its operating limits, now are you? That's the whole point of the flatter and much smaller sail. So why would it be any harder to furl a storm jib in a 55 knot wind than your main headsail in a say, a 35 knot wind?

The advantages of a furling storm jib are clear.

On the other hand -- you have less need of furling for a storm jib. You won't need to reef it. You won't have so many situations where you urgently need to take it in. Less to break with hank-ons.

But I don't agree with any of the arguments that a furling storm jib just won't work.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You're not going to have more force on your storm jib, than you do on your main headsail within its operating limits, now are you? That's the whole point of the flatter and much smaller sail. So why would it be any harder to furl a storm jib in a 55 knot wind than your main headsail in a say, a 35 knot wind?

The advantages of a furling storm jib are clear.

On the other hand -- you have less need of furling for a storm jib. You won't need to reef it. You won't have so many situations where you urgently need to take it in. Less to break with hank-ons.

But I don't agree with any of the arguments that a furling storm jib just won't work.

I agree, assuming you have some advanced notice of a storm arriving, like the wind picking up, what stops someone dropping the Genoa at F6 and replacing it with a storm jib on the RF? Afterall you are going to have most of the Genoa rolled if the wind goes any higher, whilst a storm jib is probably just right. If it gets really nasty then rolling the storm jib away is going to be a heck of a lot easier from the cockpit, but I never want to need to go that far

We have a 20 year old storm jib which has probably only been out of the bag twice, once when the first owner tried it and once when we bought the boat and tried it, at the dock side to see how it fitted. I want to keep this as is, so currently watching sails on ebay, but it looks like the season in the northern hemisphere is about to kick off and prices are rising.

So why not have a selection of sails for RF?

Pete

[Stillraining]

I know my boat will benefit from having it tacked 4 or 5' further aft and headed further down the mast...the stresses on the rigging should be less and the the weather helm will be as well. Tacking will also be easier as it wont blow the bow off the wind quite as bad.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Interesting thread to follow

As a kid one of my jobs was to set / lower / change the hanked on foresails - but to be fair that weren't ever in storm force conditions on extended passages. Being nimble with a low CoG helped a lot plus plenty of "training" from scrambling over rocks (a skill that I have since found evaporates with age / size ) - of course no harness or Lifejacket back then I didn't exactly miss the job when the old man later splashed out on a furler ......but wasn't an altogether horrendous job.

What helped with the hanked on was having someone on the helm who didn't do anything stupid / didn't make my life harder (of course as a kid a lot of blind faith involved on my part).........and something I sorely missed with hanked on sails on my 21 foot Corribee and no autopilot - whether solo or with crew ........amazing how swapping a sail can be such a PITA if the boat is going around in circles. randomly whislt working on a small bouncy foredeck.........


At the moment I have a furler on a single forestay - as I have dreams of a bowsprit interesting to read the thoughts (and experiances! of others) whilst mulling over the options for up front. Not enuf room to be a Cutter (without a 10 foot bowsprit - and of course then balance issues to consider) was thinking to move the furler to the bowsprit for a ginourmous light airs genoa (for bad weather was thinking a sleeve / sock to prevent unfurling - moored or on passage)......with possibly the existing forestay reverting back to hanked on sails - particularly for a decent shaped jib (with or without reef points).......fortunately the Seadog has decent sized foedeck and usable sidedecks, plus a forepeak built for storing sails (albeit storing sails on a 30 footer would eat a lot of room down below..........).

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, we have used our roller furling staysail in a hard Force 9 with good results.

Yes, the staysail on a cutter or cutter rigged ketch is the perfect sail for those conditions and on a bigger boat, will still be feasible in a low B10 ("storm" starts at B10).

However, if we go down to a 30' boat (or the 28' of the OP), things change. First of all, everything that is smaller is weaker and I mean that something half the size is weaker than half the strength, so safety margins in hardware become much smaller. Also, the conditions have much more impact on a small boat. What you feel on a Moody 54 in 50 knots of wind is comparable to 30-35 knots for a 30' boat. In other words: a smaller boat becomes overpowered by the weather conditions at an earlier stage.

I know from experience that it is possible to hank on a jib on storm conditions. While I never tried it, I am sure that I wouldn't be able to feed the boltrope into the foil of a furler and hoist the jib in a storm. The difference is that you are not hoisting the hank-on sail yet when you hank it on... when packed right, it can still be in it's bag when you do that. Storm winds will simply rip the jib out of your hand and out of the foil when you try to feed it in.
(I can see an experienced 4-man racer deck crew pulling it off on a foil with pre-feeder but we're talking cruiser gear now, right? I see many cruisers that have trouble feeding a regular jib while in the marina with 15 knots of wind!))

Lets assume the sail gets set somehow... or it was furled on the stay beforehand and is now deployed in a storm. The static loads involved can probably be handled by the system (but I don't think the manufacturers will spec it for that). The problem is that there will be enormous shock loads, with the jib collapsing frequently like in the lee of a wave. The construction of a sail that goes into the foil of a cruising furler is much weaker than that of a hank-on storm jib. Just check it out for yourself on your own sails. The boltrope is a pre-assembled piece that is stitched to the luff. The dacron on that piece is much lighter than even the material for the smallest storm jib and it has to be, because thicker material would not fit inside the groove. Here's an example of the weak link if I ever saw one. On a storm jib, we have heavy material with grommets and bronze hanks. Many even have a steel wire in the luff. The whole construction is at least 10 times as strong.

Now, it was proposed to furl the sail partially, so that the wraps on the foil take the tension off the weak spot. That system is just a disaster waiting to happen. The slightest mistake will unfurl the whole sail and is probably followed by a shockload as the wind takes hold of it. Also, when partially furled, the forces are transferred to the furling mechanism and furling line. That is another disaster waiting to happen. I can just see the line on the furler under that much tension, jamming itself under the other turns on the drum, or breaking itself or some other part of the furler or the blocks/guides that lead the line away from the drum. The chances that you can't furl the sail anymore are high and that means you need to un-furl and lower it, possibly in conditions that are too much for even this sail (when you want to get rid of it when the wind gets up more). I think you will be lucky if a shredded jib is the result.

Next point is safety of the crew. When you hank on a storm jib, you sit on the deck while doing that and you are at the mast (or cockpit) when hoisting it. When feeding while hoisting you are right there where the sail beats up everything in it's path, trying to fight and feed it in. I would never ever ask my crew to something that dangerous. I think we all have had a slap around the ears from a jib; just imagine how that is with heavy sail cloth during a storm.

If you have no inner forestay or you have a furled sail on it, you would be better off using just a try-sail or a jib like that ATN gale-sail or whatever it's called. What worries me about that one is that they call it a gale sail, not a storm sail.

cheers,
Nick.

[Bash]

This thread has made me increasingly unsatisfied with my own system, basically a furling #4 for storm conditions. Somewhere in the back of my mind I've known that I need a setup for a detachable baby stay so that I can run a true storm jib from that.

I'm wondering now whether it might be possible to make the baby stay of spectra rather than wire, and find a hank-like attachment system that would work with spectra. Anyone out there more up-to-date than me on synthetic rigging systems?

(By the way, Nick, how much money do we get for admitting that you're right?)

[Pete7]

Nick, excellent post,

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The construction of a sail that goes into the foil of a cruising furler is much weaker than that of a hank-on storm jib. Just check it out for yourself on your own sails. The boltrope is a pre-assembled piece that is stitched to the luff. The dacron on that piece is much lighter than even the material for the smallest storm jib and it has to be, because thicker material would not fit inside the groove.

Hadn't thought of that, guess the storm jib will have to stay hanked on.

Pete

[s/v Jedi]

Bash: sure, use that hyped Dynex Dux (serious). You can just use regular bronze hanks on that because you will be glad to replace it after you safely made it through a bad storm. I would not want to deal with a detachable steel wire stay... you will hate it every day you don't need it.
About $$$: it's the other way around, I'm offering $$ for proving me wrong because I would welcome a better system. I do believe that one can come up with something better and safer but it's not gonna be using the cruiser furlers we have on our boats.... I'm already envisioning specialized storm jib furlers though....

Pete: thanks, I always have many more arguments in my head than what I post... my posts are long enough already ;-) Our storm sails are in bags with a zipper. You can hank on the sail while it's in the bag and tie the bag down so that opening the zipper is all that's needed. I can see further improvements for that system too, like using Velcro so you can force it open by hoisting the sail. I got that idea from our cover for the life-raft that uses the same principle.

ciao!
Nick.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

While I never tried it, I am sure that I wouldn't be able to feed the boltrope into the foil of a furler and hoist the jib in a storm. The difference is that you are not hoisting the hank-on sail yet when you hank it on... when packed right, it can still be in it's bag when you do that. Storm winds will simply rip the jib out of your hand and out of the foil when you try to feed it in.
(I can see an experienced 4-man racer deck crew pulling it off on a foil with pre-feeder but we're talking cruiser gear now, right? I see many cruisers that have trouble feeding a regular jib while in the marina with 15 knots of wind!))

I don't think anybody advocated that -- feeding a storm sail into a furler in storm conditions. I agree that this is madness. I too have enough trouble in the marina, even with 0 knots of wind. I would never dream of trying it in a blow.

But if the man has got a second furler he can leave rigged with the storm sail, then I don't see any problem with that. If he's got two headsails and if for any reason his staysail is not suitable for storm duty, could swap it for a storm sail before going to sea, if there is a risk of heavy weather.

That Gale Sail looks good to me. It has the additional advantage of enveloping the furled headsail, making it impossible for it to unfurl. Looks like a very good, convenient setup.

Somebody else asked about a wire removeable inner forestay:

Don't knock it, if you haven't tried it. I've been on Oysters with this and it works great if you rig it correctly. It needs one of those quick release/tensioning levers (forgot what that's called) and a good place to park the stay when it's not being used. In that case it doesn't interfere at all when it's idle, and you can rig it in like 15 seconds. I wouldn't bother with rope, which will chafe, and which will likely be harder to rig. Chafe on the inner forestay would be a nightmare scenario in a big, long blow. Definitely go with wire, I say.

Just make sure your mast is well supported. If you've got a masthead rig, it may not take kindly to having all the headsail force relocated down the mast somewhere, where it can be bent. On our boat, we are required to rig running backstays if using the headsail in anything but light winds.

[CAELESTIS]

This is a great thread with many thoughtful posts. I happen to be in the middle of this type of project right now. My 130% lives on a N52 Profurl. I have a number 4 but it would be beyond difficult to wrestle a 130 to the deck in 20+ knots with the given sea state (and now soaking wet sail), and load the #4 all by myself(who would hoist if I am on the foredeck?).

I have added a 3/8 wire removable solent stay, with an ABI lever, and hank on staysail. The sail can sit on the deck until conditions build, furl away the 130, and then simply hoist from the cockpit. The staysail also has a reef (I would pre-set it from the deck).

I considered the dynex dux, but after swapping a few emails with Evan Starzinger, elected to go with wire. He had a dynex dux stay, and replaced it with wire.

Just my .02

[Bash]

answered my own question, with assistance from google. there is a type of soft hank called, of all things, "softies."

Softies | Colligo Synthetic Systems | Colligo Marine

looks like a good system until you get to the bottom of the page and see how much more one of these babies costs than a bronze hank.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CAELESTIS

This is a great thread with many thoughtful posts. I happen to be in the middle of this type of project right now. My 130% lives on a N52 Profurl. I have a number 4 but it would be beyond difficult to wrestle a 130 to the deck in 20+ knots with the given sea state (and now soaking wet sail), and load the #4 all by myself(who would hoist if I am on the foredeck?).

I have added a 3/8 wire removable solent stay, with an ABI lever, and hank on staysail. The sail can sit on the deck until conditions build, furl away the 130, and then simply hoist from the cockpit. The staysail also has a reef (I would pre-set it from the deck).

I considered the dynex dux, but after swapping a few emails with Evan Starzinger, elected to go with wire. He had a dynex dux stay, and replaced it with wire.

Just my .02

Worth talking about the Solent stay, in this conversation. Has one great advantage over an inner forestay -- your backstay will balance it; you don't need runners just because of the extra stay. A Solent stay is, of course, an inner forestay which goes to the masthead or almost, instead of somewhere lower. Geometry of the sail is not as good, but geometry of the rig is better, than a regular inner forestsay.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

But if the man has got a second furler he can leave rigged with the storm sail, then I don't see any problem with that. If he's got two headsails and if for any reason his staysail is not suitable for storm duty, could swap it for a storm sail before going to sea, if there is a risk of heavy weather.

That is true, but I don't see how that would work in reality, apart from the issue that the sail luff can't be made strong enough. If you have this inner stay with furler, I assume it is being used for staysails too, not just for a storm jib. I can't see anyone spending the $$$ on a furler that might never get used, plus the maintenance. So, the furler is already in use for the staysail, which is used before the winds go to storm force requiring the storm jib. The staysail is the sail to use for a fresh to strong gale.
If you are in harbor and see that storm brewing or you hear it's forecast: yes, you could put the storm jib on before heading out, but I think it's madness to do so, I would hide in the tiki bar and wait for the storm to pass!

That Gale Sail looks good to me. It has the additional advantage of enveloping the furled headsail, making it impossible for it to unfurl. Looks like a very good, convenient setup.

Yes, it does. But why is it called a gale sail and not a storm sail? I have no use for something like that when it's only usable for gales because I fly my regular staysail for that. I am afraid when they don't want to state it is a storm sail because there must be a reason for that.

Just make sure your mast is well supported. If you've got a masthead rig, it may not take kindly to having all the headsail force relocated down the mast somewhere, where it can be bent. On our boat, we are required to rig running backstays if using the headsail in anything but light winds.

Yes, we skipped that part, good catch! A sloop or a ketch doing this should consult a rigger. If it's just for a storm jib you can create a baby stay that attaches where the lower backstays attach. But that stay will be too small for a staysail. If you have no lower backstays or if you want a cutter stay (second spreader attachment or above spreaders for a single-spreader rig) you really should consult a rigger. Cutters and cutter-rigged ketches already have the stay.

solent stay: sure, this avoids the mast support trouble, but you get other trouble instead... like with most things, they are all compromises ;-) The trouble with the solent stay is forestay tension. If the solent stay is too tight, your regular genoa will be sagging at the luff too much. If the solent stay is too loose, you get shockloads when hanking the storm jib on. Have the rigger explain and demonstrate how to tune that so you can keep an eye on it yourself and you'll be okay. If you have a backstay tensioner that you use for sail trim during "normal" weather, you have to remove the solent stay.

Dynex Dux: If you use this stay just for a storm jib, you can use bronze hanks because you don't do it often and hopefully never. But when you want to use it for staysails too you can use the soft hanks like Bash found ;-) In the EU, these were used 30 years ago already, mostly for attaching the sheet to the clew of the jib. They still knock you out when it hits your head but the experience was considered more pleasant than with a shackle or a knot in the sheet itself ;-)
I would not be worried with a half-inch dynex dux removable cutter stay on Jedi. That stuff is seriously strong. We have Amsteel Blue masthead-runners for 5 years now; 1/2" on the main and 3/8" on the mizzen and we use them for mast bend all the time, tensioning the forestay. Never a problem and no sign of deterioration.

Yes, this is a good thread because it makes us think again about our "storm plans" and our inventory for dealing with it. When we finish this, we should start a thread about the main or try sail for storms.

ciao!
Nick.

[feelsgood]

Perhaps I dont understand but what if you have a cutter rig with your genoa on the forestay roller and a staysail of heavy storm material on the staysail roller. I would think that this would have just about everything covered.
I have sailed with more gaff and standing lug and chineese balanced lug than anything else but have never had a problem that you all seem to have with a bermudan rig. Perhaps its time to look back after all thay didnt have motors and sailed in all weathers as they didnt have weather info apart from their knowledge of the seas and seasons.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by feelsgood

Perhaps I dont understand but what if you have a cutter rig with your genoa on the forestay roller and a staysail of heavy storm material on the staysail roller. I would think that this would have just about everything covered.
I have sailed with more gaff and standing lug and chineese balanced lug than anything else but have never had a problem that you all seem to have with a bermudan rig. Perhaps its time to look back after all thay didnt have motors and sailed in all weathers as they didnt have weather info apart from their knowledge of the seas and seasons.

I dunno;we don't particularly have a problem. We do have a staysail of heavy material which is specifically designed to be used as a storm sail. The staysail furling gear is also designed for the stress of that use. And yes, I think we pretty much have it covered. Need a trysail, only, to put up instead of the main. Next project.