Hank-on Sails vs Furler ?

[Dockhead]

[QUOTE=NoahH28Ketch;414495]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The H28 Ketch balances great with a furled Headsail/Genoa and reefed or unreefed Mizzen perfectly. Furling in/out to balance the helm is the method I use frequently in the gulf here in South Australia.

Up to 18 knots, run all 3 sails.

20 knots, drop the main or reef to 2nd reef on the main if on a beam reach or more and furl in headsail to balance helm.

25-30 knots Drop main, furl headsail to match sail area of mizzen, then balance helm with same.

35-40 knots reef mizzen and just a rag of headsail required, will still get along at 6-7 knots like this!

OR drop mizzen and furl headsail right in and run with just a Main at 3rd reef if the sea state is a bit short and choppy, or with a following sea, run a preventer forward to the bowsprit if required.

Oh, get out of here. What do you know about the balance problems of us single-stickers?

Obviously this discussion hardly applies to ketch-drivers. They have many, many more balance option than we do.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bewitched

This is what I have - staysail hanks on too. Where do you see the performance being lost on your system - windward performance only, or do you think it affects other points of sail?

I don't know -- I have read that that what was earlier considered to be a plus for cutters, namely the second slot, is actually a minus because of more drag. That sloops go better to windward than cutters, I have heard.

It's all theory to me so far because our new boat's performance, compared to the old one, is like a Ferrari compared to a Trabant, particularly upwind. The old one was a sloop, but 20 years older than the new one, long fin keel, etc. Lot of progress made in rig and underbody design in those 20 years (new boat has a bulb keel).

So I can't really judge based on experience, but I have read this.

What we don't have is any problem tacking. The yankee whips right through the slot without the slightest problem with the inner forestay (so far; knock on wood). Easiest tacking boat I've ever sailed, despite huge size of the yankee and despite the presence there of the inner forestay. Having the staysail on the inner forestay probably helps a lot. Dacron slides easily over Dacron; much less so over a steel wire. Maybe if you had a sail on your removeable inner forestay when it's rigged, you would have better luck.

[bewitched]

I understand it to be a windward issue - but also don't have the experience to confirm.

I've tried tacking with both sails up - no great joy. The problem is that there is about the same genoa sail area behind the inner stay than in front of it, so it just hangs up in light winds.

The inner stay is not original, so I guess I positioned it a tad too far forward.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by bewitched

I understand it to be a windward issue - but also don't have the experience to confirm.

I've tried tacking with both sails up - no great joy. The problem is that there is about the same genoa sail area behind the inner stay than in front of it, so it just hangs up in light winds.

The inner stay is not original, so I guess I positioned it a tad too far forward.

Well, you can see from the image below that our inner forestay is also not that far aft, so that more of the yankee is ahead of the stay, than not. It's fine. Maybe it's the high clew that helps it.

[NoahH28Ketch]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Obviously this discussion hardly applies to ketch-drivers. They have many, many more balance option than we do.

This discussion is about a Steel H28 Ketch, and whether a Roller Furler is a good idea or not. (See the first post, it's what the discussion is about) I was providing information about how to balance this exact boat, as I have one!

I therefore can't understand why this discussion does not apply, and why I've been told to "get out of here"!

Carry on... its interesting reading nonetheless!

[s/v Jedi]

So many people believe that a rolled up headsail stays that way as long as the furler control line doesn't break. They can not be convinced otherwise no matter how many others tell them to take that jib or genoa off and stow it below. Then when they see others taking their jibs down, they shake their heads, declaring them fools. But when the storm has passed, this is how they end up:

Now, watch very carefully: the furler didn't break, both foot and head of the sail are still fully rolled up. It is the middle section that has unwrapped because that is what the awesome power of 100 knot winds can do. Next thing is that you now fly a sail halfway up the mast and so the boat decides to start sailing and that trip ends on a reef.

So, be wise; if the weather guys tell you that you're in for a storm, take down your headsails and stow them below. Hank on a storm jib, put 3 reefs in the main or set the trysail, clear your decks and double check everything and hold on. Try to broad-reach out of the storm center instead of into it or along with it. If you have a roller on your staysail (which is very likely for a cutter) you can get a storm jib to hank on to that after the staysail is removed (soft hanks that go around the foil). Your cutter staysail is not a storm jib, it is a staysail.

It is simply not worth taking risks with the boat and yourselves when the weather goes bad during a passage. It is certainly not the time to experiment.

cheers,
Nick.

[Bash]

if I were to go forward during a passage to switch to a storm sail, I'd certainly prefer to hank that sail to an inner stay. Even using a pre-feeder, it's difficult to feed a bolt rope into a foil during high winds. In any appreciable seas, working on an inner stay (or baby stay) will be far easier than working on a headstay or forestay. Not to mention dryer.

It's never made sense to me to own a storm staysail without having rigged at least a detachable inner stay. Doing otherwise, especially on a sloop, is to introduce balance issues. By the same logic, it makes no sense to have a storm staysail built with any other attachment system than hanks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by NoahH28Ketch

This discussion is about a Steel H28 Ketch, and whether a Roller Furler is a good idea or not. (See the first post, it's what the discussion is about) I was providing information about how to balance this exact boat, as I have one!

I therefore can't understand why this discussion does not apply, and why I've been told to "get out of here"!

Carry on... its interesting reading nonetheless!

Yes, it's hilarious how the OP gets lost in the shuffle sometimes, as we get carried away with our own thoughts. Sorry about that.

So getting to the 28 foot steel ketch. You will have the least need, of any kind of boat, to set your storm jib further aft. Your boat should balance fine on jib 'n' jigger with the main dropped. If you get some lee helm, just take a reef out of the mizzen. That being said, there will be less stress on the rig, if you have your storm sail on an inner forestay, and the boat will be even easier to balance, so if you have one, use it. But on a rig that small, it's not a big deal, so if you don't have an inner forestay then I would forget about it.

On a rig that small, a hanked-on headsail has fewer disadvantages than on a bigger rig. You can probably reach the forestay from the cockpit, right? (just kidding of course.) You've a few people here singing the praises of old-fashioned hanked-on headsails. But for all the reasons several other people have laid out in some detail here, I personally would always, on any kind of sailing boat whatsoever, want to handle my headsails only with roller furling gear. I think roller furling is the best thing since sliced bread.

[NoahH28Ketch]

The Disadvantage of a roller furler like mine, is that it has a halyard built in to the forestay instead of one you can take back to a winch, making it more difficult to raise and lower.

Thanks for the photo s/v jedi. It will change how I run my halyard from now on... Right now it's tied off in such a way as to make it hard to release, I'll find a way to keep it tight, but make it easy to release to bring the headsail down if necessary.

I have around 6 extra turns on the furler drum, and when stowing the sail, if I leave 2 turns loosely around the sheet winches to create some drag, I can furl the headsail very tightly on the stay, and then continue wrapping the sheets around the furled sail in a tight spiral that starts from around 1/3 the way up the stay, to near the deck.

That being said, I fully agree and understand and respect the power of the elements! its the top 2/3rds of the sail which is the worst to come unravelled or get torn up by the force of the wind, because of the windage being high up, it would create a high heel angle, and put you out of control pretty quick, and with no way to control it.

I have no way to "wrap" the top section of my furler in the same way as I do the bottom.

What about getting a sock, or bag made which can be hoisted via a halyard over the whole furled sail, made of a very heavy material designed for the purpose? I'll talk to my sailmaker about options here now I've seen the pic above!

being a very heavy material for cruising, hoisting the headsail or lowering it would be very difficult on my own with my furler design, without some thought as to how to make the task easier. If it was done regularly, I think it would be fine. I should practice in fine weather taking it down and raising it.

"profurl" furlers amongst others have a swivel around the halyard which goes to the top of the mast, and some even have one on the bottom for a downhaul.

Mine goes over a block at the top of the furler stay tube and back down to the deck on the outside of the luff, and I tie it off back at the drum, so it gets wrapped up with the sail. easy and nothing much to break, its 6mm spectra line. but no winches up at the foredeck! I put a small block on the drum, because I find it easier to tension the halyard by pulling up on it against the deck, than hanging off it!

I've seen a design by my sailmaker of a storm sail which is permanently attached to a sock which pulls over the furled headsail. The downside is still the windage of the bulk left on the stay, but maybe a good compromise?

Oh, and Dockhead, I can't quite reach the forestay from the cockpit, there's a dodger in the way! Me being an old fart of 33, I like to keep warm and dry whilst playing with furlers and such!

[dpons]

Originally Posted by Eleven

then I'd recommend a front hinged fore hatch that crew can use if rough rather than working on deck. Also much quicker and easier to get the 'off' sail (and crew) down below and secured.

every time I was worried about working up front, there was -- surprise, surprise -- a lot of water coming over. I can't imagine having a hatch open in these conditions.

Clip-on and suffer.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Now, watch very carefully: the furler didn't break, both foot and head of the sail are still fully rolled up. It is the middle section that has unwrapped because that is what the awesome power of 100 knot winds can do. Next thing is that you now fly a sail halfway up the mast and so the boat decides to start sailing and that trip ends on a reef.

And checkmate.

That picture is worth more than a 1,000 words. A lot more.

[barnakiel]

The furled sail is often left up over long periods in marinas, which is a bad mistake. UV strip protected or not, the sun will soon start to eat out the threads. So if you have a furling jib, do spend a couple of extra bucks and get yourself an acrylic 'sleeve'.

b.

[Hiracer]

Originally Posted by dpons

every time I was worried about working up front, there was -- surprise, surprise -- a lot of water coming over. I can't imagine having a hatch open in these conditions.

Clip-on and suffer.

I was always forced to get the big headsail down before conditions got really wet because we were over powered long before water start climbing over the bow.

Once the the 100% blade went on, all the subsequent changes were reefs to the main. But she was a stiff boat.

Now days I have a staysail too. But I do miss that 100% blade. Proly get it back someday.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by NoahH28Ketch

Thanks for the photo s/v jedi. It will change how I run my halyard from now on... Right now it's tied off in such a way as to make it hard to release, I'll find a way to keep it tight, but make it easy to release to bring the headsail down if necessary.

Okay, let me explain how to change it;

Buy a short (4') piece of Spectra single braid (like Samson Amsteel Blue). This is also called a hollow-braid, when you push the line together, it opens up and is hollow inside. Buy it in the same diameter as your halyard.
This line is super-easy to splice, you don't even need tools. Now what you do: there is something that the halyard is tied to near the furler drum. Pull the Spectra through that eye and splice both ends together so that you have created a loop. You will be able to bury 1' of each end into the splice so that you get a loop that you can pull up to 1' above that attachment point.
Next is the halyard. Tie a bowline onto the end... you will have to experiment with the exact position a bit but make it so that it is 2" short of reaching the Spectra loop for starters.
Find or buy a small shackle. If they have it, select a "soft shackle" which is made out of Spectra. A soft shackle will be longer meaning you must shorten the bowline loop on the halyard.
Now, the end result is obvious: you want to shackle the halyard-loop to the Spectra loop... but it doesn't reach because you need to tension it. For that, you temporary need a block and a line (use a sheet or whatever). Shackle the block to the same attachment point that the Spectra loop is on. Feed the line through the block and tie it with a short bowline to the halyard-bowline. I hope you can follow me... ;-)
Now you can take that extra line to a winch or line up some hand to pull on it. put the shackle between the loops and remove the line and block. When the system is setup and adjusted, you can cut any excess line off the halyard.

I assume you already have to tie a line to the halyard to lower the genoa, or do you store a full halyard near the furling drum?

I do something similar with my regular halyard so that I don't have to deal with all that rope at the mast when the jib is on the furler.

cheers,
Nick.

[NoahH28Ketch]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I assume you already have to tie a line to the halyard to lower the genoa, or do you store a full halyard near the furling drum?

Nick.

Thats right, I hank on a line when the halyard goes aloft as the sail comes down. I understand exactly what you're saying and describing and thank you very much! what I might do is use some of the spectra loops I have for my ronstan orbit blocks, and loop it onto itself through the eye on the drum, then do as you describe, as I have a few spare loops around. worst case, in a blow, I can cut the orbit block loop to get the sail down in a hurry!

All thats required then is modifying the length and position of the bowline on the end of the halyard, a straight-forward affair, and because the loop is nice and close to the drum, it should mean the shackle won't end up in the sailcloth doing damage whilst being furled.

Many thanks, thats a great idea.