Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-04-2016, 07:19   #1
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 33
"Y" Valves and locks

I've seen pictures of Y Valves being locked to the holding tank pisition with an actual padlock. Is a padlock required by LAW or can it be "secured" using say, a bolt and nut or nylon wrap ties. Seems to me all would be OK as they ALL can be unsecured/re-rescured very easily.
I only ask in that the location of my Y Valve would make it impossible to use a bolt cutter to cut a padlock off if I lose the key?
Thoughts?..
Thanks
Bill
__________________

__________________
Maine_bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 07:53   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
Captain Bill's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat
Boat: Endeavourcat Sailcat 44
Posts: 2,167
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maine_bill View Post
I've seen pictures of Y Valves being locked to the holding tank pisition with an actual padlock. Is a padlock required by LAW or can it be "secured" using say, a bolt and nut or nylon wrap ties. Seems to me all would be OK as they ALL can be unsecured/re-rescured very easily.
I only ask in that the location of my Y Valve would make it impossible to use a bolt cutter to cut a padlock off if I lose the key?
Thoughts?..
Thanks
Bill
"non-removable Wire ties" are deemed acceptable by the USCG. These are the CG description for what the rest of us call nylon cable ties. This description comes from the MIL Spec description of a nylon cable tie, and since the the USCG is a quasi military organization they use that description. There is such a thing as a "removable wire tie" which has a small tab on it that can be used to unlock the cable tie without cutting it. I saw these while working for a defense contractor many years ago, but have never seen one in the civilian market. The only problem you might have is occasionally one runs into a local LEO that has no idea that a "non-removable wire tie" is the same thing as a nylon cable tie. They seem to think that since the spec has the word wire in it that it must have a wire somewhere, which of course a cable tie does not have. I heard of a guy a few years ago that got a ticket in FL for having one secured with a cable tie. I don't know if he fought the ticket or not. From the description of what the LEO wanted to see he described a "Wire Seal" as opposed to a wire tie. A wire seal has a wire with a lead crimp at one end and the wire is routed through the thing to be secured and back through the crimp which is then compressed to lock it in place. The CG regulations require a wire tie not a wire seal. I include this information just in case you need to explain the difference to an untrained LEO or a judge.

One other thing to remember is that in Florida having the valve closed but not secured is only supposed to be a $50 fine, while having it open is a $250 fine. I have never heard of a LEO writing up the $50 charge even when it was all that was appropriate. They always write up the $250 charge. I guess they figure that most people will just pay the fine and move on rather than fight it in court. It's the waterway equivalent of the old GA speed trap and a real money maker for the local government.
__________________

__________________
Captain Bill is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 08:08   #3
Marine Service Provider
 
peghall's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,324
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Unless you're unlucky enough to be inspected by a local, state or (VERY rarely) USCG law enforcement person with an advanced case of "Barney Fife syndrome, anything you use to "secure" the system that obviously demonstrates intent to comply will be accepted. You'll find all the acceptable methods for securing both Type I and II (treatment) systems and Type III (holding tank systems) in 33 CFR 159.7 "Requirements for Vessel Operators" which you can read here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/159.7
__________________
2016 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
peghall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 08:46   #4
Registered User
 
CaptTom's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Southern Maine
Boat: Prairie 36 Coastal Cruiser
Posts: 646
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

This regulation lists examples of what's acceptable, but they're sometimes interpreted as the ONLY options.

My last boat had two switches hidden under the helm which had to be pressed at the same time to work the macerator. I never knew if the manufacturer had deemed that to meet the requirement or not.

And what about adding a key switch in the macerator circuit? Seems to me that would lock it out of service as effectively as locking the door to the head (an "acceptable" method per the CFR.)

Back to the Lake Champlain question, I wonder if removing the handle of the through-hull will be acceptable to NY and VT?
__________________
CaptTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 09:10   #5
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,936
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by peghall View Post
Unless you're unlucky enough to be inspected by a local, state or (VERY rarely) USCG law enforcement person with an advanced case of "Barney Fife syndrome, anything you use to "secure" the system that obviously demonstrates intent to comply will be accepted. You'll find all the acceptable methods for securing both Type I and II (treatment) systems and Type III (holding tank systems) in 33 CFR 159.7 "Requirements for Vessel Operators" which you can read here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/159.7
In Florida, at least, they are VERY particular about doing it to the letter. They are not friendly and not lenient. I'm here to tell you . . . They are as efficient and ruthless as any storm troopers ever were.

Is it "Barnie Fife" syndrome? Maybe -- but in that case, it's universal down there.

After half a dozen fines, and in the last case despite cable ties (our arguments that this is supposed to be acceptable fell on deaf ears -- "You can fight it in court if you like; have a nice day"), we finally installed a Lectra San and permanently isolated and closed the direct discharge. Note that we were never caught with the valve open -- just "not properly secured"; once there was even a padlock on it but the key was in my pocket, which I stupidly admitted . . .


That brought relief from the dreaded Potty Police, and they didn't notice or care during the couple of years the device was not working . . .
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 18:23   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Long Beach, CA
Boat: Tayana Vancouver 42
Posts: 1,652
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by peghall View Post
Unless you're unlucky enough to be inspected by a local, state or (VERY rarely) USCG law enforcement person with an advanced case of "Barney Fife syndrome, anything you use to "secure" the system that obviously demonstrates intent to comply will be accepted. You'll find all the acceptable methods for securing both Type I and II (treatment) systems and Type III (holding tank systems) in 33 CFR 159.7 "Requirements for Vessel Operators" which you can read here: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/33/159.7

Just curious since I don't have this problem where I sail. In my case I have no Y valve, just straight to the holding tank, but I do have a manual pump for overboard discharge of the tank to a below waterline through hull. Would that be a problem in the places being discussed? If so what would be required to secure the discharge pump or seacock?


S/V B'Shert
__________________
Tayana42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 18:42   #7
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 1,790
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayana42 View Post
Just curious since I don't have this problem where I sail. In my case I have no Y valve, just straight to the holding tank, but I do have a manual pump for overboard discharge of the tank to a below waterline through hull. Would that be a problem in the places being discussed? If so what would be required to secure the discharge pump or seacock?


S/V B'Shert
Little known even by Great Lakes boaters on Lake Ontario ..... The Ontario Water Resources Act provides for fines up to $50,000 and vessel seizure for discharge of certain materials including fuel, oil, dangerous chemicals and sewage. The Environmental Act, Ontario Regulation 343 states Water outlets for the head and/or holding tank must have no physical connection to an overboard discharge valve.
__________________
Be the man Sharon thinks I am - wg
I can do that - wg
If you're not laughing, you're not doing it right. - wg
boatpoker is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-04-2016, 22:46   #8
Marine Service Provider
 
peghall's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,324
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

The Environmental Act, Ontario Regulation 343 states Water outlets for the head and/or holding tank must have no physical connection to an overboard discharge valve.

Do you have a link to that act, Poker? I'd like to add it to my files.
__________________
2016 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Author "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
peghall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 01:34   #9
Registered User
 
sparrowhawk1's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Miami Beach Fl
Boat: Colombia Cc 11.8
Posts: 1,066
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tayana42 View Post
Just curious since I don't have this problem where I sail. In my case I have no Y valve, just straight to the holding tank, but I do have a manual pump for overboard discharge of the tank to a below waterline through hull. Would that be a problem in the places being discussed? If so what would be required to secure the discharge pump or seacock? My advice is to figure out a way to lock your seacock closed..


S/V B'Shert
For years I worked on a cattlemaran, I mean catamaran that took tourists out and we would just remove the handle from the manual pump and that was deemed legal. So I did the same thing with a Y valve that had a removable handle. it was in the holding tank position and I was boarded for a "safety inspection" and given an $80 fine. If I fought it I probably would have won but sometimes you can't stick around.
__________________
sparrowhawk1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 04:46   #10
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 29,865
Images: 240
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Ontario Environmental Protection Act
R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 343
DISCHARGE OF SEWAGE FROM PLEASURE BOATS

https://www.ontario.ca/laws/regulation/900343
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 05:21   #11
Moderator
 
Dockhead's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: [S]Hamble (Spring and Fall)[/S], Cowes (Winter), Baltic (Summer) (the boat!); somewhere in the air (me!)
Boat: Cutter-Rigged Moody 54
Posts: 16,936
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparrowhawk1 View Post
For years I worked on a cattlemaran, I mean catamaran that took tourists out and we would just remove the handle from the manual pump and that was deemed legal. So I did the same thing with a Y valve that had a removable handle. it was in the holding tank position and I was boarded for a "safety inspection" and given an $80 fine. If I fought it I probably would have won but sometimes you can't stick around.
Just the Y valve? Or also the discharge seacock?

The examples in the rules mention the discharge seacock. You would have to be pretty literal minded, to say that you didn't accomplish the same thing in almost exactly the manner provided in the example, but I wouldn't be surprised. My experiences were the same. They were out to write tickets no matter what, and they didn't seem to care much whether there was any justice in it, probably because they counted on few people taking the trouble to appear in court. Following the "rules of engagement" with LEOs (always deferential, respectful, cooperative demeanor etc.) never worked for us, with these particular guys, and my Dad was a Coast Guard auxiliary, and even that carried no water! Very unpleasant, and one reason why I don't much miss cruising in Florida. You just never knew, when there might be some kind of a hassle. It seems to me that there is something almost even perverted, about this obsession with toilet waste.


I highly recommend the Lectra San, to anyone cruising in these waters -- it not only relieves you from all the pumping out, it eliminates questions from the Potty Police. That's because they just can't accuse you of anything they can even make a case about, much less prove, without analyzing the technical condition of the device, which they are not equipped to do (and not interested in). I guess a composting or incinerating toilet would have a similar effect.
__________________
Dockhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 09:01   #12
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,435
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by peghall View Post
The Environmental Act, Ontario Regulation 343 states Water outlets for the head and/or holding tank must have no physical connection to an overboard discharge valve.

Do you have a link to that act, Poker? I'd like to add it to my files.
It strikes me that regulation would prohibit the majority of boats afloat.

I presume it is not actively enforced?

What do Great Lakes locals have to say?
__________________
hpeer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 09:13   #13
Registered User

Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 481
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
It strikes me that regulation would prohibit the majority of boats afloat.

I presume it is not actively enforced?

What do Great Lakes locals have to say?
Most great lakes boats (I'm Lake Ontario) just aren't plumbed with Y valves or overboard discharge. Head just connects straight to the holding tank and the holding tank is emptied via a Deck fitting. there's been no other way for 40 years! pump outs are everywhere. I haven't run into a marina that didn't have the ability to empty a holding tank.
__________________
pcmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 09:20   #14
Senior Cruiser
 
hpeer's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Philadelphia
Boat: Murray 33-Chouette & Pape Steelmaid-44-Safara-both steel cutters
Posts: 3,435
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Interesting. Our small boat was built in the lakes 30 years ago. Toilet to holding tank, as you say, but then to a Y valve for pump out or discharge.

There a lot of "loopers" going through the lakes and they mostly will have provisions for direct discharge, I think?

I ask because I'll be going up the Erie Canal and down the St Lawrence this summer.
__________________
hpeer is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2016, 09:31   #15
Marine Service Provider
 
boatpoker's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario or Bahamas
Boat: Benford 38 Fantail Cruiser
Posts: 1,790
Re: "Y" Valves and locks

Quote:
Originally Posted by hpeer View Post
It strikes me that regulation would prohibit the majority of boats afloat.

I presume it is not actively enforced?

What do Great Lakes locals have to say?
No it's not actively enforced. I've never known anyone to be charged however it is the law and if you get snotty with a LEO .......
__________________

__________________
Be the man Sharon thinks I am - wg
I can do that - wg
If you're not laughing, you're not doing it right. - wg
boatpoker is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
380 S2: Engine Control and Engine Locker Locks sy-barit Lagoon Catamarans 5 23-11-2014 18:37
New Orleans locks and bridges Steel sails Navigation 6 29-08-2014 15:01
Installing "crash valves" poppasmirf Construction, Maintenance & Refit 12 01-05-2012 10:19
For Sale: Walker Bay 6.5' Hydrocurve Oars and Oar Locks off-the-grid Classifieds Archive 16 03-03-2012 11:42
Stainless steel valves or Marelon valves? David M Construction, Maintenance & Refit 11 10-12-2008 02:28


Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities


Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:04.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.