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Old 13-01-2011, 15:30   #46
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and vinegar, CLR or anything that isnt naturaly found in that specific environement/area has an affect, not just nasty ole acid...
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Old 13-01-2011, 15:31   #47
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
A flush of muratic acid will have zero effect on the ocean.

(...)
"The United States Environmental Protection Agency rates and regulates hydrochloric acid as a toxic substance."

end of quote

I understand your reasoning, but if we were to think along your lines then a single car has zero effect on environment, a single debtor has zero effect on a county's economical standing and a single citizen has zero effect on vote's outcome.

And yet, the sum of all our actions matters. Or does it not?

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Old 13-01-2011, 15:40   #48
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how many flushes of muriatic or hcl will have an affect???

or coke, or pepsi, or soap...
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Old 13-01-2011, 16:10   #49
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Well, this thread has drifted from a question, through many practical responses, to odd bits of non-chemistry and non-biology, to questions about man's right to exist and public policy. We're done here.



PS. Quoting EPA out of context is also pretty old. is regulated primarliy as a corrosive substance, which is of course its nature. In excessive amounts, out of place (stomach acid burns--we knew that), it is dangerous. The EPA also permits neutralization with lime or other caustic substance without permit to return the pH to 7 and to facilitate simple disposal as sewage. That is also in the regulations, but you need to read the entire body of regulation before you quote. Otherwise, the conversation is silly.
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Old 13-01-2011, 20:22   #50
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Originally Posted by Bergovoy View Post
and I am not chemist but if you neutralize hcl arent you also nuetralizing the seawater? or in essence altering it from where nature has set it at currently? ... no whether or noth thier regulations are extreme or not enuf is not the intent of my point, just that we are making a difference and it would behoove us and the planet to fugure out the best way to minimize that affect...
I am a chemist.

I think we share the the same viewpoint here, and I am not picking on, or debating, you. I am just injecting some facts and trying to narrow the discussion to the application of dilute HCl (muratic acid) in marine heads. My apologies if these efforts seem targeted at you - they are not.

Seawater contains several buffer systems in large quantities. Buffer systems are not a zero-sum game where they are depleted by addition of an acid (or base). They are in equilibrium and are renewable.

So, the addition of quite a large amount of muratic acid (dilute HCl) will NOT make a difference and there is no need to worry about minimizing its effects.

Really. There isn't enough muratic acid available in all the hardware stores in all the world to make a measurable difference.

This isn't a political or moral belief - it is a fact.

And this reasoning does not apply to other chemical compounds - thus the reason I am narrowly defining muratic acid usage here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barnakiel View Post
"The United States Environmental Protection Agency rates and regulates hydrochloric acid as a toxic substance."

end of quote

I understand your reasoning, but if we were to think along your lines then a single car has zero effect on environment, a single debtor has zero effect on a county's economical standing and a single citizen has zero effect on vote's outcome.

And yet, the sum of all our actions matters. Or does it not?

barnie
Yes, by definition muratic acid is a strong acid - which is a chemical distinction - not necessarily a quantitative qualifier (there is a chemical distinction between strong and weak acids that has little to do with their environmental effects). As such, it falls under the EPA auspices to categorize it - as do many, many chemical compounds.

And yes, the EPA regulates it as a corrosive material. It also regulates acetic acid under the same category and with the same cautions.

Acetic acid is vinegar.

The particular EPA categorical classification you site is unrelated to any environmental effects outside those immediate to handling the substance in close quarters, or in combination with other chemical compounds.

Have you ever worried about the EPA's warning regarding the gut full of muratic acid you carry around with you 24/7? It is far more concentrated than what you can buy in a hardware store...

In the case of muratic acid, our actions do not matter. And your line of reasoning regarding the cumulative effects of automobiles, debtors and voting citizens is a red herring. It is not the same reasoning as I am using. Of course the cumulative effect of single instances that do change the balance of a system matter. Automobiles, debtors and voting citizens fall in that category. Dilute hydrochloric acid does not.

Really. Dump the entire world's current supply of muratic acid (dilute HCl) into the oceans right now and you won't achieve a measurable difference. Do this once/week and you still won't see a difference.

I am not being pedantic or political or anything else here. As a chemist, I feel some responsibility to educate a public that has too many conflicting opinions from people with political (or other) agendas. And again, I am talking strictly about muratic acid here, and not any other chemical compound.

So, let's get back on topic. If you still feel strongly about not using muratic acid, simply put in new plumbing and routinely use a cup a vinegar. Never deviate from the routine, because once the deposits form, vinegar will quickly become useless for dissolving them.

If your plumbing has deposits you can use muratic acid to dissolve them. Even then, it will probably take a few applications.

If you have plumbing deposits and you still feel you are risking the health of the world's oceans, simply remove the hoses and bang them against a piling. Keep in mind the deposits flinging out of your hose and into the water are also strictly regulated by the EPA as environmental pollutants. They are part of the reason you need that holding tank. By the way, they are also regulated as pollutants on land and in landfills.

Just for context, here are some foods containing muratic acid:

- Dairy-based drinks, flavoured and/or fermented (e.g., chocolate milk, cocoa, eggnog, drinking yoghurt, whey-based drinks)
- Condensed milk and analogues (plain)
- Milk powder and cream powder and powder analogues (plain)
- Unripened cheese
- Ripened cheese
- Processed cheese
- Cheese analogues
- Dairy-based desserts (e.g., pudding, fruit or flavoured yoghurt)
- Edible ices, including sherbet and sorbet
- Processed fruit
- Confectionery
- Breakfast cereals, including rolled oats
- Pre-cooked pastas and noodles and like products
- Cereal and starch based desserts (e.g., rice pudding, tapioca pudding)
- Batters (e.g., for breading or batters for fish or poultry)
- Pre-cooked or processed rice products, including rice cakes (Oriental type only)
- Processed meat, poultry, and game products in whole pieces or cuts
- Egg-based desserts (e.g., custard)
- Table-top sweeteners, including those containing high-intensity sweeteners
- Seasonings and condiments
- Vinegars
- Mustards
- Soups and broths
- Sauces and like products
- Water-based flavoured drinks, including "sport," "energy," or "electrolyte" drinks and particulated drinks
- Beer and malt beverages
- Cider
- Distilled spirituous beverages containing more than 15% alcohol

Mark
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Old 13-01-2011, 20:32   #51
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chemical buffers I am familiar with... and yes you can overdose a chemical and if you have a buffer it will keep the pH in balance to whatever buffer level the product is designed for..

in salt water aquarium we use pH buffers in teh 8.2 - 8.3 range


I was unsure if buffers occur in nature and if they are 'finite' or not... ore reproductive/produced...
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Old 13-01-2011, 20:48   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bergovoy View Post
chemical buffers I am familiar with... and yes you can overdose a chemical and if you have a buffer it will keep the pH in balance to whatever buffer level the product is designed for..

in salt water aquarium we use pH buffers in teh 8.2 - 8.3 range


I was unsure if buffers occur in nature and if they are 'finite' or not... ore reproductive/produced...
Perfect! By design, don't salt water aquariums have to mimic the actual ocean? I don't know for sure, but just basing a guess on the fact that they contain ocean creatures.

If so, then a simple experiment would be to make up a normal buffer system and add muratic acid until you get a measurable pH change. Then extrapolate.

You will see a larger change in an aquarium than the real ocean, because the aquarium will lack the dynamics of interactions with the atmosphere, the regulation with the water cycle and the effect of suspended biologicals like plankton, diatoms, etc. (again, I'm assuming aquariums lack plankton, diatoms and related things).

Buffers in nature aren't absolutely infinite (they are renewed), but they are effectively infinite in the case of muratic acid usage in marine heads!

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Old 13-01-2011, 21:44   #53
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unfortunately, i had to sell my aquarium for my impending move to liveaboard... but i can answer your qeustions just not do teh test...

check below for the answers...

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Perfect! By design, don't salt water aquariums have to mimic the actual ocean? I don't know for sure, but just basing a guess on the fact that they contain ocean creatures.

If so, then a simple experiment would be to make up a normal buffer system and add muratic acid until you get a measurable pH change. Then extrapolate.

You will see a larger change in an aquarium than the real ocean,
I kinda question this. if the test were done baed on ratio and not volume, then the change wouldnt be greater, maybe faster due to the wrong balance of some of the things you menthion, but, instead of dumping a gallon of hcl into a 100 g system, i would dump a few drops... trying to keep thing in perspective kinda thing
Quote:
because the aquarium will lack the dynamics of interactions with the atmosphere, the regulation with the water cycle and the effect of suspended biologicals like plankton, diatoms, etc. (again, I'm assuming aquariums lack plankton, diatoms and related things).
actually a good aquarium would have all that.. amybe/probably nbot in the right balance, but we try to emulate and attain the perfect balance and if possible self sustaining, even food... the filtration system has been evolved to match nature, in fact the use of 'filters' is not used or needed. the main filter of the aquarium is the biological organisms that live in the rock and sand, and on top of all exposed surfaces, i.e. glass, plumbing, etc.
Quote:

Buffers in nature aren't absolutely infinite (they are renewed), but they are effectively infinite in the case of muratic acid usage in marine heads!

Mark
anyways, future questions regarding aquarium can be done on the side or in a different thread or on my forum link in my signature down below
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Old 14-01-2011, 12:35   #54
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btw: I am sure folks have heard the expression, A DROP IN THE BUCKET, or pi$$ing in the ocean... and basically intent to describe perspective/proportion...

but...

how many people are there in the world? 7 billion something???? how many is that? Is it enough that if all the folks in the western hemisphere jumped up at the same time, and all those on the eastern side landed at the same time, would they move the earth?

if they all screamed at the same time? if they all flushed their toilets? or Pee'd inthe ocean, or flushed with HCL??

I heard the statistic broken down the other day.. and tried to save the link and will continue to look for it... but...7 billion people would fit into Los Angeles SHOULDER TO SHOULDER...

they all could have a house and fit it into Texas...

every single one of us...

to think that we (at this time), can affect something is crazy... the only possible 'problem' would be one of our own infrastructure... and or something toxic or self sustaining... i.e. ozone/cfc...

anyways, just sayin'
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Old 14-01-2011, 13:57   #55
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
I am a chemist.

I think we share the the same viewpoint here, and I am not picking on, or debating, you. I am just injecting some facts and trying to narrow the discussion to the application of dilute HCl (muratic acid) in marine heads. My apologies if these efforts seem targeted at you - they are not.

Seawater contains several buffer systems in large quantities. Buffer systems are not a zero-sum game where they are depleted by addition of an acid (or base). They are in equilibrium and are renewable.

So, the addition of quite a large amount of muratic acid (dilute HCl) will NOT make a difference and there is no need to worry about minimizing its effects.

Really. There isn't enough muratic acid available in all the hardware stores in all the world to make a measurable difference.

This isn't a political or moral belief - it is a fact.
An expert...and some facts. Yeah! Thanks Mark!
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Old 14-01-2011, 16:45   #56
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My point, though it is far too late in the thread for reasoned posts, is that HCl does not contribute any more acidity than vinegar--they are the same in that regard--and it contributes less biological pollution. So, it is mathematically and by chemistry, the lesser of 2 evils.

The alternatives?
* Hold it until you get home
* Beat everything to death and hope it doesn't break
* Replace it with a new one, which probably isn't zero impact

As I suggested, probably the lesser evil. And if the user discharges to a POTW (holding tank), the impact is zero, since the POTW with treat with lime.
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Old 14-01-2011, 16:57   #57
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i concede to your point with the information and recognition of the naturally occuring BUFFERING capacity of nature and in our oceans...
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Old 19-01-2011, 11:02   #58
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Actually, no, only HCl. SS is fine with most acids, just not Cl- in acid solution. Assuming we are talking 316 SS.

I've got to add, that if we are talking seawater flush (2% Cl-) and dilute acid (2-3% Cl-), the addition of Cl- here is really, really tiny. I think it is a science project, in the real world, to determine if there is any real difference between vinegar and HCl in equal moderation. We are quoting chemistry without facts.

Technical Information - Stainless Steel Chemical Resistance Chart FL | Hayata
I am not a chemist ,(though I have had extensive training), I work on a daily basis with a variety of chemicals, acids, etc... some of which can be used in stainless steel, some can't. That is a good list, but notice it only has two primary acids, both clearly got a D for compatibility. Weak organic acids can be used with stainless, because it forms an oxide layer on the surface to prevent forther corrosion. HCL as does most mineral acids, HF, H2SO4, etc... disolves this layer causing pitting and eventual leaks. PVC is very tolerant of most acids because it is already chlorinated it takes a very strong acid, (usually with some heat), to break these bonds. As far as enviromental impact the above posters are correct, HCL quickly disperses in sea water and reacts with disolved calcium and sodium to form salt. If you pumped several gallons out at once, you might kill sea life in the imediate vicinity of your boat for a few hours/minutes?.
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Old 19-01-2011, 14:32   #59
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I am a retired chemical engineer and in my younger years worked in the industrial chemical cleaning industry. There we mostly used hydrochloric acid with a corrosion inhibitor to remove water scale- mostly calcium carbonate. We started with commercial muritatic acid, 32% by wt HCl (same as swimming pool acid) and diluted it 1:3 to use at 140 deg F. At this temp and with the inhibitor it had minimal corrosion effect on mild steel over a period of 4 hours contact time.

HCl corrodes 304/316 stainless steel not by removing metal, but by causing microscopic cracks that will cause pipe and tubing under pressure to fail. We used an organic acid- sulfamic for use with stainless steel as it doesn't have that effect.

If you need to remove x lbs of uric acid scale then it is going to take y lbs of concentrated acid (well, subject to some molecular weight sophistication that the chemists will understand) to remove it, whether you use muriatic, vinegar, orange juice or stomach acid. And the effect on the sea is going to be the same no matter what you use.

IMO diluted muriatic acid is the best substance to use to remove heavy scale. I have used CLR and Rydlime on head parts, but it takes much longer. But HCl isn't very friendly and for most people I would recommend that they use one of these.

But if you have a half inch of uric acid scale on your head hose, almost nothing is going to remove it in a reasonable time. Replace it and try to flush more to push the uric acid into the holding tank.

David
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Old 15-01-2014, 11:33   #60
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Re: Muriatic Acid and Marine Heads

Hate to wade into this chemistry debate, but what I'm surprised nobody has pointed out (at least not that I could see) is that if you do this right by the time you're flushing it into the sea you don't actually have any muriatic acid left!

2HCl + CaCO3 = CaCl2 + CO2 + H20

The CaCO3 is the gunk you are trying to get rid of. So what you're actually flushing into the ocean, if you do this right, is a bunch of calcium chloride (in ionized form). You are upsetting the delicate balance of chlorine and sodium ions in the ocean, for sure. I guess that's something to be aware of. But you aren't flushing out muriatic acid (again, if you do this conservatively and in the right way).

Ok, ok, for the particularly fastidious, I guess you're also emitting a bunch of CO2 (which is a greenhouse gas). But trust me, eat some beans and spend an afternoon farting and you'll already have emitted more greenhouse gas (methane, far worse than CO2) than you would cleaning your once a month.
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