Why aren't sailing instructors sailing?

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Maybe some folks on this forum would find the fumes coming off the dried human feces you use to cook your meals with just as offensive as you find outboard fumes to be.

Just a hunch....

In this case not what is offensive but what is damaging to health. Have you ever even burned human feces? If I did you would think I was grilling something and without knowing the smell have no idea that is what it was. My friend burned his in a wood stove and laughed as tourists on the dock commented on the "nice" smell it made, since it smells like cooking the food he had eaten.

fuel reacting under high pressure creates a lot more harmful gases containing nitrogen such as NOx and cyanide that is not possible from an open fire. Humans evolved thousands of years alongside wood fires, not combustion engines.

My confusion is why the instructors don't have some kind of sail on their boat so they can also harness the wind since most of the time they are idling around and using the sail would be perfect. It wouldn't be a downside in any way.

In one port, all the kids were sculling when there was not wind. It's not a factor of "rock star" but what they are taught. Those sailing dingys can go quite fast propelled this way I saw them flipping both the sail and rudder and rocking in time, so really air sculling with the sail more than what the rudder did it seemed. Was very nice to watch.

[Pelagic]

[QUOTE=thomm225;2900185

...was on duty had to burn the "sh!tters" in am which was part of the duty watch. The sh!tters had sawed off 55 gallon drum sections below and these were pulled out and the crap was burned

We poured in a bit of diesel fuel [/QUOTE]


So, how well does sh*t burn?

Might as well learn something from this thread [emoji57]

[Jim Cate]

Sean, you are a bright guy so I'm thinking that you are being deliberately obtuse here.

The use of a RIB as a coaching and rescue boat rather than a "faster sailboat" is predicated upon both speed of access to any emergency and providing a stable platform from which to perform emergency services.

Your "faster sailboat" provides neither of these factors. Fast dinghy sized sail boats are even more "tippy" than the training dinghies they are hoping to aid and thus make very poor rescue platforms. And even "faster" sailboats are far slower upwind than a outboard powered RIB, even if they have been fitted themselves with an outboard s you suggest. And faster when acting in rescue mode is pretty important Oh... "faster" sailboats don't often have much in the way of cockpit space to offer to rescued kids w hen you have pulled them from the water, nor good places to store the first aid supplies that should be on board a rescue boat. And consider the utility of doing CPR on a child, confined to the cockpit of a "faster sailboat".

Now as to the evils of towing an elephant train of Sabots out to their training grounds... all very well to scull IF the distance involved isn't too great, but some venues require travelling quite a ways to get to the designated practice area. Do you think it is right to spend a big chunk of the available training time sculling endlessly? I don't.

So, IMO your demands for coaches to not use combustion engines because you might occasionally be exposed to their exhaust gasses for a few minutes are both selfish and foolish.

It has been quite a few years, but I served as a training person in a youth sailing program back in SF Bay. We did not use RIBs for they were too expensive then, but the tinnies that we did use were outboard powered and stable. I pulled a number of exhausted children from the cold waters of the Estuary and was damn glad not to be working from a sail boat. If you have had any similar duties and performed them from a sail boat, I reckon we'd all like to hear about them.

Jim

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

In this case not what is offensive but what is damaging to health. Have you ever even burned human feces? If I did you would think I was grilling something and without knowing the smell have no idea that is what it was. My friend burned his in a wood stove and laughed as tourists on the dock commented on the "nice" smell it made, since it smells like cooking the food he had eaten.

fuel reacting under high pressure creates a lot more harmful gases containing nitrogen such as NOx and cyanide that is not possible from an open fire. Humans evolved thousands of years alongside wood fires, not combustion engines.

This could become a good financial oportunity for you:

[seandepagnier]

Jim,

You have made some great points, and I have more to think about.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Now as to the evils of towing an elephant train of Sabots out to their training grounds... all very well to scull IF the distance involved isn't too great, but some venues require travelling quite a ways to get to the designated practice area. Do you think it is right to spend a big chunk of the available training time sculling endlessly? I don't.

The sculling is to get back if the wind dies. I don't think you would bother going out if you have to scull very far right? I believe patience is a very important part of sailing, and so to measure training time or to require a set time to return is the wrong way to teach it.

So it might have merits in the exceptional case of the distance being very far, and the wind dropping unexpectedly, I have never witnessed this case. Instead I see them towing the boats when they could be sailing!

So, IMO your demands for coaches to not use combustion engines because you might occasionally be exposed to their exhaust gasses for a few minutes are both selfish and foolish.

Foolish maybe, but this is not a selfish request, but the contrary. Being exposed to their exhaust gases is only one issue. The instructor also utilizing sail skillfully while also managing the boats is a positive change.

The state of the world is in I consider it unacceptable to use combustion engines. This applies to cruising boats as well as all kinds of non-essential recreational activities like air travel. It is simply not needed and far exceeds the energy consumption of most people in the world. This is selfish.

It has been quite a few years, but I served as a training person in a youth sailing program back in SF Bay. We did not use RIBs for they were too expensive then, but the tinnies that we did use were outboard powered and stable. I pulled a number of exhausted children from the cold waters of the Estuary and was damn glad not to be working from a sail boat. If you have had any similar duties and performed them from a sail boat, I reckon we'd all like to hear about them.

Jim

This is helpful information. Until I can discuss similar duties I will admit you have won this point.

I would still to discuss possibilities to improve the future, nothing is perfect and I think everything can be made better.

I would like to back up and make a smaller step instead of a leap at first to make sure I'm on stable ground before proceeding.

Why can't they switch to trimarans that are still outboard powered? It would use less than half the fuel and be even more stable for rescue. All the people in the philippines use them, and despite terrible engines, they have greater fuel economy than the powerboats here. When they are going fast the amas are completely out of the water with no drag from them either!

Someone in maine designed a trimaran lobster boat. The excuses why the lobster boats are so wide and relatively short was stability and ability to carry lots of pots. The trimaran lobster boat was more stable and could carry more pots, and used less than half the fuel to do exactly the same thing. Despite this, it was sneered at and laughed by the lobstermen because they didn't want to change and they like "their design" even though it's not very good. Is this attitude an issue here as well?

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thomm225

You say some may not remember how to right the boat!? Ridiculous. That person will definitely need to be in a school situation. And if they don't remember, they are not that much into it at all or they would have remembered

This isn't about how great you are without training. This is about people in a sailing school...they admit their weakness and get training.

Also, in a panic situation, even if they are "that much into it", book learning can go out the window in an instant.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thomm225

As I said before, some of us learn best alone where our minds are not cluttered with lots of talk so we can concentrate.

We get it...you think you are a genius who can learn anything in a day all by yourself.

It's not relevant to the discussion though as we are talking about a formal teaching scenario where it is presumed that the student wants to learn from someone.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

In this case not what is offensive but what is damaging to health. Have you ever even burned human feces? If I did you would think I was grilling something and without knowing the smell have no idea that is what it was. My friend burned his in a wood stove and laughed as tourists on the dock commented on the "nice" smell it made, since it smells like cooking the food he had eaten.

Apparently dog poo smells different when burnt...made that mistake when burning off some yard waste and tossed in a few piles using the shovel that were nearby...no way I was thinking it was someone having a BBQ.

Of course, if the kids lungs are full of water because the teacher couldn't get there before he drowned...no worries about carcinogens.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

We get it...you think you are a genius who can learn anything in a day all by yourself.

Not true.

It's just that some of us learn better on our own. It's actually fun if you are really interested in the subject.

My interest started when I read this book. Okay, maybe I didn't read it but I studied the pictures in detail on many boring afternoons before first grade

Later I obtained an old sailing dinghy by trading my Mauser deer rifle for it. I didn't need a deer rifle in a city of 680,000

I "sailed" that dinghy in any pond or lake I could find then a few years later bought the first of four beach cats

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

So, how well does sh*t burn? that we primed it

Might as well learn something from this thread [emoji57]

You have to remember we primed the sh!t with diesel fuel then lit it off.

This got the crap burning and warmed the duty guy while he had his smoke and drank his morning coffee. We had one outhouse that was a dually and one single. So there were three barrels to get burning.

This from around 1976.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Not true.

It's just that some of us learn better on our own. It's actually fun if you are really interested in the subject.

Again...not relevant to the discussion...this is about formal training. If you don't need any help, it doesn't matter if the instructor uses an antigrav jet pack and hovers over the trainees.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

This isn't about how great you are without training. This is about people in a sailing school...they admit their weakness and get training.

Also, in a panic situation, even if they are "that much into it", book learning can go out the window in an instant.

Not sure where book learning "alone" came in.

When you train yourself, you use everything available from your boat, to books, to charts. This chart helped me the most then being on the water...…. a lot

Book learning was mainly used for the finer points of sail trim and racing. The rest was learned by doing.

In racing going first up against casual racers then a couple years later hard core win or swim racers along the Gulf Coast

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Not sure where book learning "alone" came in.

When you train yourself, you use everything available from your boat, to books, to charts. This chart helped me the most then being on the water...…. a lot

Book learning was mainly used for the finer points of sail trim and racing. The rest was learned by doing.

In racing going first up against casual racers then a couple years later hard core win or swim racers along the Gulf Coast

First time on the water, all you have is book learning (which in this context includes books, charts, internet, etc.. basically anything other than doing it for real.).

But AGAIN, this thread is about how formal training is conducted not if you can teach yourself to do something.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

First time on the water, all you have is book learning (which in this context includes books, charts, internet, etc.. basically anything other than doing it for real.).

Not true.

I used pictures, my experience with RC Planes, and observing others sailing. The boating experience came earlier in life on power boats

[seandepagnier]

I learned to sail from a remote control sailboat in ponds and small lakes. I grew up more than 100 miles from the ocean. I did not have the opportunity to sail dingys, but I think it's a great thing and I wish more kids could.

It's fair to say at this point in the discussion that the instructors could be using sailing trimarans, and possibly an outboard for emergency use only.

If I can learn to sail without polluting others, I believe these kids can too.