Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 01-04-2010, 12:46   #46
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
No, I meant that UK Royal Navy warship that didn't act during a pirate action while within 50' of it. I mean seizure by pirates in action.

And Gord, releasing pirates that were captured during acts of piracy isn't adhering to legal principles: it's justice failing. It's just because nobody wants to deal with their prosecution. Kenya did, but just announced they can't handle it anymore as the reason for not taking over custody of additional pirates over the last 2 weeks.
The linked article doesn't state under which circumstances these pirates were captured though, just that they had the weaponry.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________

__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 12:57   #47
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Wash.
Boat: no longer on my Cabo Rico 38 Sanderling
Posts: 1,794
Send a message via MSN to John A
The last two comments of the latest incidence are very telling. Anarchy appears to be the controlling force.

International naval forces have stepped up their enforcement of the waters off East Africa in an effort to thwart a growing pirate trade.
Experts say piracy will continue to be a problem until an effective government is established on Somalia's lawless shores. The country has not had a functioning government for 19 years
__________________

__________________
John A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 13:11   #48
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
You are right John. The problem is like in so many places elsewhere: there is no such thing as a united Somali people. There are tribes, ethnic- and religious groups that have no desire to live peacefully together in one nation. Remember that borders were drawn by colonial powers, not by these peoples. Real solutions are not discussable with Western nations because you get down to dictators or many new countries.

As long as this is the situation, piracy will continue to be a problem, but we can try to suppress it to protect shipping on the high seas in the mean time. The naval forces have the legal authority to act but their morale is very low when all that happens afterwards is letting them go again just to repeat this over and over. Sinking some boats and confiscating some weapons will not work because they have the funds to buy new.... but it at least boosts the morale of our navies a little bit.

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 13:16   #49
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Nick:
What we have here, is a failure of law (enforcement) to satisfy your sense of justice.

Justice cannot be exactly equated to law - that there are major differences* between law and justice.

* Justice is defined as conformity to moral rightness in action, or attitude, the upholding of what is just, especially fair treatment and due reward;
Whereas, law is a body of rules and principles governing the affairs of a community, the condition of social order and justice, created by adherence to a fixed legal system.

Justice and law both aim at order and stability in society, and the promotion of the highest welfare of the individuals in that society.

Justice, however, is subjective, and changes according to the viewer's prejudice, viewpoint or social affiliation.

A set of objective rules (LAW) is needed to make society function.
A society can exist without effective implementation of law, but it cannot exist at all without having a basic notion of law.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 13:29   #50
Registered User

Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,967
This is a case of forgetting the lessons of history. There is a wealth of experience learned over hundreds of years that the only successful way to handle pirates is with guns. While many believe (including many Americans like me) that the US had done a pretty terrible job recently deciding when and how to use it's military, we did get the "pirate thing" right 200 years ago. It's a pretty good story if you don't know it!

The US's first overseas battle was against the Barbary pirates (and the US Marines still sing of "the shores of Tripoli"). In a case of history repeats itself, both the US and Europe had been paying tribute to the pirates for many years for safe passage. Thomas Jefferson finally decided he wouldn't pay a demand for tribute from the Pasha of Tripoli for $225,000 (this was in 1801 dollars) so he sent most of a very small US navy and what would later become the Marines to fix the problem. It started quite badly when the American's ran one of their frigates (the USS Philadelphia) aground in Tripoli harbor

(from Wikipedia)

Efforts by the Americans to float the ship while under fire from shore batteries and Tripolitan naval units failed. The ship, its captain, Willian Bainbridge, and all officers and crew were taken ashore and held as hostages. The Philadelphia was turned against the Americans and anchored in the harbor as a gun battery.
On the night of February 16, 1804, Lieutenant Stephen Decatur led a small contingent of the U.S.'s first Marines in the captured Tripolitan ketch rechristened USS Intrepid, to deceive the guards on board the Philadelphia and float close enough to board the captured ship. Decatur's men stormed the vessel and overpowered the Tripolitan sailors standing guard. With support from American ships, the Marines set fire to the Philadelphia, denying her use to the enemy.


Preble attacked Tripoli outright on July 14, 1804 in a series of inconclusive battles, including a courageous but unsuccessful attack by the fire ship USS Intrepid under Captain Richard Somers . Intrepid, packed with explosives, was to enter Tripoli harbor and destroy itself and the enemy fleet; it was destroyed, perhaps by enemy guns, before achieving that goal, killing Somers and his crew.


The turning point in the war came with the Battle of Dema (April-May 1805). Ex-consul Willima Eaton, led a mixed force of eight United States Marines and 500 Greek, Ara, and Berber mercenaries on a 600 mile march across the desert from Alexandria, Egypt to assault and to capture the Tripolitan city of Derna.

The First Barbary War didn't end it. A second war was required to finally rout the pirates.

Hopefully, the USS Nicholas took the first step yesterday. At least they didn't run aground - they probably have one of them new depth sounders instead of a sailor with a lead line in the chains.

Carl

PS - the pictures are of the Philadelphia aground and the Enterprise capturing a pirate corsair
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	300px-PhiladelphiaAground.jpg
Views:	78
Size:	25.7 KB
ID:	14686  
Attached Images
 
__________________
CarlF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 14:03   #51
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Regarding the capture of 5 alleged pirates by the “USS Nicholas”: "The suspected pirates will remain in US custody on board Nicholas until a determination is made regarding their disposition," according to the US DOD.

Defense.gov News Article: USS Nicholas Captures Suspected Pirates
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 15:01   #52
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Hey, this gets more interesting ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Nick:
What we have here, is a failure of law (enforcement) to satisfy your sense of justice.
That is a good and sharp remark, well done! ;-) Worthy of an intelligent reply:

Justice is much more than what you quoted in the rest of the msg. There are many forms of justice and the meaning changes over time. But in my previous post, I meant Criminal Justice:
Quote:
Criminal justice is the system of practices and institutions of governments directed at upholding social control, deterring and mitigating crime, and sanctioning those who violate laws with criminal penalties and rehabilitation efforts.
In the cases of pirates captured during their acts of crime, the law enforcement part worked (the crime was stopped and the offenders caught) but it is the follow up with the criminal justice system that failed.

So, it doesn't really concern my sense of justice, but that of the bigger International community as defined in International law. My personal sense of justice is mostly happy with how those laws are defined, so my view can be considered as normal, with normal as in "the social norm":
Quote:
Social norms are the behavioral expectations and cues within a society or group. This sociological term has been defined as "the rules that a group uses for appropriate and inappropriate values, beliefs, attitudes and behaviors. These rules may be explicit or implicit. Failure to follow the rules can result in severe punishments, including exclusion from the group.


If you advocate that pirates (not just suspected ones) should not be prosecuted and punished, it is you who's view is outside that of the social norm of how the majority of the peoples of the world think about this issue (as laid down in International Law). So, bouncing the ball back to you, it is you who should explain why you feel so differently about dealing with pirates because my view is that of "all humanity", so logical to everybody already ;-)

ciao!
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 16:22   #53
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
... If you advocate that pirates (not just suspected ones) should not be prosecuted and punished, it is you who's view is outside that of the social norm of how the majority of the peoples of the world think about this issue (as laid down in International Law). So, bouncing the ball back to you, it is you who should explain why you feel so differently about dealing with pirates because my view is that of "all humanity", so logical to everybody already ;-)
I don’t’ advocate that alleged* pirates not be prosecuted (in fact, just the opposite); but merely recognize that without a complainant, nor a jurisdiction willing to try and incarcerate (should they be convicted) them - it’s not happening. Though very inconvenient, I dont believe this should be sufficient cause to abandon the rule of law, in favour of summary vigilantism.

* Under most modern systems of jurisprudence, the accused is not guilty, until proven otherwise at trial.

I’m no stranger to being outside the (mistaken) majority.

I’ll admit that I have no solution to the Somalian piracy problem, and I’m sorry I started a philosophical discussion, which I haven’t the energy to prosecute further.

Thanks for an interesting, intelligent & mature engagement - I yield the floor, & retire.
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 17:01   #54
Do… or do not
 
s/v Jedi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: in paradise
Boat: Sundeer 64
Posts: 9,198
Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
Though very inconvenient, I dont believe this should be sufficient cause to abandon the rule of law, in favour of summary vigilantism.
Agreed. But when we consider that piracy is defined as an act of war in International law, how does that change the situation?

Quote:
* Under most modern systems of jurisprudence, the accused is not guilty, until proven otherwise at trial.
Agreed again but we should realize that this is just a formality when the proof is staring everyone in the face like when a pirate is captured while he is committing his act of piracy. Military courts can be quickly formed by officers aboard the warships.

Quote:
I’m no stranger to being outside the (mistaken) majority.
Indeed, I've seen you around the club ;-)

Quote:
I’ll admit that I have no solution to the Somalian piracy problem, and I’m sorry I started a philosophical discussion, which I haven’t the energy to prosecute further.
Thanks for an interesting, intelligent & mature engagement - I yield the floor, & retire.
Don't be sorry, this is what spices these threads up way better than postings like some I've seen... I was already out of the thread but decided to come back today ;-)
Good show!

cheers,
Nick.
__________________
s/v Jedi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 17:05   #55
Registered User
 
Stillraining's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Puget Sound
Boat: Irwin 41 CC Ketch
Posts: 2,876
Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
No, I meant that UK Royal Navy warship that didn't act during a pirate action while within 50' of it. I mean seizure by pirates in action.

And Gord, releasing pirates that were captured during acts of piracy isn't adhering to legal principles: it's justice failing. It's just because nobody wants to deal with their prosecution. Kenya did, but just announced they can't handle it anymore as the reason for not taking over custody of additional pirates over the last 2 weeks.
The linked article doesn't state under which circumstances these pirates were captured though, just that they had the weaponry.

cheers,
Nick.
What bugs me is there are crimes in the US that need no one to testify against you...The State prosecutors in some cases will pick up the ball and testify against your actions as illegal with the evidence at hand...Is there a difference in international law?...I would think the captors have sufficient grounds to enter testimony as to the fact rather legitimate fishermen or active pirates.....That should be enough IMHO
__________________
"Go simple, go large!".

Relationships are everything to me...everything else in life is just a tool to enhance them.
Stillraining is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 17:14   #56
Registered User
 
cburger's Avatar

Join Date: May 2006
Location: Nyack, NY
Boat: Westsail 32
Posts: 1,547
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydra View Post
It's amazing how many people on this forum refuse to give pirates the right to a fair trial. And I'm not sure if the present laws of the USA give the Navy the right to arrest, trial and hang people on the high seas. Of course, it could be made possible.

Alain
Those who have the guns, make the rules.
__________________
cburger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 18:12   #57
Registered User
 
rustypirate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Largo, Florida
Boat: Bruce Roberts Offshore 38
Posts: 268
Images: 10
I would most certainly give them the right to a fair trial...

They woud have a trial by test....

If they leave me alone and mind their own business then they will have passed the trial and I will not engage them in a contest of arms.

If they attempt to molest me in any way, then they will have failed the test, and judgement is due.
__________________
Some people are like a slinky...

Not really good for anything, but fun to push down the stairs.
rustypirate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 18:43   #58
Registered User

Join Date: May 2009
Location: Vancouver, Wash.
Boat: no longer on my Cabo Rico 38 Sanderling
Posts: 1,794
Send a message via MSN to John A
Dang, they shot at a US Navy warshio and we're discussing their rights? Am I missing something here? Or is this somekind of generational thing?
__________________
John A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2010, 19:00   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Port Ludlow Wa
Boat: Makela,Ingrid38,Idora
Posts: 1,973
Dreaded Sea Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stillraining View Post
The idea of becoming a pirate is starting to look quite favorable to me...

I could use the money if not entirely legal at least more or less accepted and apparently, relatively risk free method of making it.

Good use for my Sea Ray I guess.
I knew it, I knew it.. I have had a bad feeling about all those non sailing fast, wake making Sea Ray's.....They're Pirates!! And to think I thought they were Canadians!
__________________
IdoraKeeper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-04-2010, 07:46   #60
Registered User
 
Randal Johnson's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: December 2014 Back in Marmaris Turkey getting Dora Mac ready to put back on the market.
Boat: Diesel Duck 462 M/V Dora Mac
Posts: 114
Somali Pirates in Retirement

I certainly respect everyone’s views on this subject but I doubt it will ever be resolved to everyone’s satisfaction but for those who think the pirates are poor disenfranchised fishermen they might read this report which suggest the business has been taken over by financiers in Dubai, London, and Mombasa. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1976993,00.html
The actual pirates in the skiffs and mother ships performing the acts are very low on the totem pole and receive very little money.
The only way for it to cease is to stop its profitability. My choice would be for the navies in the region to start using force. I’m also in favor of ships carrying armed guards.
I cannot remember my source but last year I read that ships were charged a premium by their insurance carriers for passage around the horn of Africa. The article I read said the additional premium could be as much as $10,000 USD. You can do the math yourself based on the number of ships that transit this area but if half the ships paid half that amount you are looking at some serious money. I can see why they would be opposed to armed guards on ships that have the potential to end this activity.

Randal
__________________

__________________
Randal Johnson is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NATO Warship Sinks Pirate Mothership Laidback Cruising News & Events 105 18-05-2010 07:17
Another boat sunk CaptHead Powered Boats 8 01-10-2008 23:21
Launch sunk seafox Cruising News & Events 14 04-12-2006 11:40
SV Mahdi repells pirates with shot gun Bob Norson Health, Safety & Related Gear 6 12-12-2005 15:08



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:57.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.