What to buy?

[L-Oaf]

We are new to sailing, but not to boating and have hundreds of sea miles under our belts on motor cruisers, its now time to chill a little and kick back and do some gentle sailing to farer fields, we are not in to racing and are looking for a comfortable 40-50ft deck saloon cruiser sloop, but what make to go for, what's the pros and cons of some of the mass produced yachts like Beneteau, Moody, Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour against others like Oyster, Discovery, Halley etc?

[Joh.Ghurt]

Very easy: Take the one

• is for sale in the right area for you
• is in a good enough shape
• you will get insurance for
• your competent surveyor doesn't warn you against
• you can afford
• you like best for whatever reasons dear to your heart (or your wife's)

With all moderately modern production boats you get what you pay for and they're all fit for ocean crossing in that size bracket.

[carlosproa]

Originally Posted by L-Oaf

We are new to sailing, but not to boating and have hundreds of sea miles under our belts on motor cruisers, its now time to chill a little and kick back and do some gentle sailing to farer fields, we are not in to racing and are looking for a comfortable 40-50ft deck saloon cruiser sloop, but what make to go for, what's the pros and cons of some of the mass produced yachts like Beneteau, Moody, Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour against others like Oyster, Discovery, Halley etc?

So your experience is on power boats?

There are some variables to sort out. It may be a good idea to pick a random sailboat for a weekend and see how you feel on the space, motion, and required physical and mental skills. I am not saying sailboats are harder to handle, but you might discover what areas are negotiable and which ones are not. Specially your significant other should feel comfortable on her new potential new living arrangements vs what is experience on a motor boat.

[MikeHoncho]

Originally Posted by Joh.Ghurt

Very easy: Take the one

• is for sale in the right area for you
• is in a good enough shape
• you will get insurance for
• your competent surveyor doesn't warn you against
• you can afford
• you like best for whatever reasons dear to your heart (or your wife's)

With all moderately modern production boats you get what you pay for and they're all fit for ocean crossing in that size bracket.

And I'd add "one you can actually handle". I've grown up around powerboats and I'm very confident in my abilities with them. When I took my new to me 30' hunter out it was very intimidating. I couldn't imagine taking out a 50' as a first sailboat. Sailing is the easy part. Docking, getting into tight spaces and achaorages is the challenge.

[L-Oaf]

Originally Posted by MikeHoncho

And I'd add "one you can actually handle". I've grown up around powerboats and I'm very confident in my abilities with them. When I took my new to me 30' hunter out it was very intimidating. I couldn't imagine taking out a 50' as a first sailboat. Sailing is the easy part. Docking, getting into tight spaces and achaorages is the challenge.

Thanks for the replies. We have both lived together on boats for lengthy periods, we both know what works for us,. In terms of handling, we have short handed small (35ft) twin screw boats with and without bow and stern thrusters
Up to 56ft, and many single screw displacement motor yachts up to 100ft with displacement of over 100tons. My SO knows what he is doing and fortunately so do I, we are both graced by having been boating virtually all of our lives, he he has in the past lived aboard for many years and was a marine engineer for a long time, and we have both had some but limited sailing experience, usually on a charter. My question was about the difference between mass production yachts and others in terms of quality and suitability for purpose?

[Rockinar]

You need to call insurance companies and talk to them about your intentions. Odds of you getting insurance on a 40 to 50 in this market with zero sailing experience or ownership is very slim to none. They dont care about you cruising on your friends big powerboats, where your slept or were an engineer.

When you tell them you want to insure a 50' sailboat the first thing they are going to ask you is how many years you have owned and sailed a similar sized sailboat before. When you say "None" they're going to hang up on you.

[Elcid]

It depends on where you are I guess. Here in Europe, Greece, I was able to insure a 40 foot yacht with zero experience without any issues.

There's a big learning curve though. But me and my girlfriend have managed ok the first year. There's quite the difference between a 40 ft and a 50 ft though. I wouldn't have enjoyed a bigger boat as a beginner.

[goboatingnow]

Experience on a power boat will count towards insurance. Baby speak for elsewhere but getting boat insurance in Europe is trivial

[valhalla360]

Do you have some burning desire to learn sailing or will it simply be used as a slow moving power boat?

Unless you have a deep desire to learn of sailing or do ocean crossings, I would go with a trawler or power cat. Depending on how price sensitive you are to fuel costs, will determine how fast of a boat to pick.

[bensolomon]

Originally Posted by L-Oaf

what's the pros and cons of some of the mass produced yachts like Beneteau, Moody, Bavaria, Jeanneau, Dufour against others like Oyster, Discovery, Halley etc?

I own a 30 year old Hunter legend 37.5 as full disclosure of any class bias I might have. To try to answer your question:

Beneteau, Jeanneau pro: reasonable build quality, they're everywhere so service and parts are easy, very comfortable below. Different models for different lifestyles available. Comfortable in a seaway.

Cons: not very good light air sailing boats.

Dufour and Bavaria lesser build quality than above and, less market share. Not great light air sailors.

Moody is a higher build quality than all the above, more unique, but should be considered more of a motor sailor based on weight, hull and cabin design. Beautiful boats, though.

Now...entering the more elite:

Hallberg-Rassey are well built, thoughtfully designed for ocean sailing. Very stout vessels. These boats typically have teak decks which for some people is a detractor due to the possibility of leaking over time.

Swans should be on this list, too, even though you didn't ask about swans. They are very safe vessels that are ocean going. They do however need a little bit to be desired down below in terms of creature comfort. That said, the sailing ability of swans is near the top.

Oyster is in a class by itself.
They have excellent sailing capabilities while maintaining beautiful creature comforts down below.

Discovery is mid range of these elite yachts with reasonable sailing characteristics with a lot of comfort down below.

Hinckleys should also be included in this list. They are still handmade and customizable. Instantly recognizable and gorgeous, high quality vessels.

Also in this upper crust of sailing vessels you should include Hylas. They have a twaron hull, they are beautiful down below, and sail well.

The other differences between all of these vessels that I did not discuss would be which of them are direct drive versus sail drive, and what engine they come with.
To me, a sail drive is a detractor from a boat. Some people love them. I personally prefer shaft drives because I've gotten very used to prop walk on my own boat and how it helps me maneuver her as well as serviceability. Also, I have been on many yachts where the cone drive begins to slip and makes it difficult to engage the engine.

Also, many of the production boats come with yanmar engines which I prefer, however some of the other boats come with either Volvo Penta engines, or westerbeke. Parts for Volvo and yanmar can be somewhat pricey with the former being more expensive than the latter. I have read multiple accounts of people being unable to source parts for their Volvo engines, or the prices are astronomical. That's not to say that yanmar is bargain basement, but personally, I have never had a problem getting a part for my 30-year-old yanmar and I never thought the expense was unreasonable.

In an attempt to try to answer your question, there is no succinct pro and con list because the pros and cons might be subjective. For example, Halberg Rassey boats typically come in center cockpit so if you don't like center cockpit that might not be the boat for you. In terms of sailing you where you are going, they all will, but some more comfortably than others.

I would say the biggest negative aspect of the production boats is the interior materials are of lesser quality. For example the wood is not wood, it's a laminate press board where in the higher quality boats it's still real teak. In the production boats, the stainless steel is not the best 316 and will show some rust (I have seen this on numerous brand new beneteaus, for example). On the production boats, the electronics will most likely be the lower end of the spectrum whereas on the higher priced, semi-custom boats, the electronics package is typically top of the line.


Good luck,
Ben

[L-Oaf]

Originally Posted by bensolomon

I own a 30 year old Hunter legend 37.5 as full disclosure of any class bias I might have. To try to answer your question:

Beneteau, Jeanneau pro: reasonable build quality, they're everywhere so service and parts are easy, very comfortable below. Different models for different lifestyles available. Comfortable in a seaway.

Cons: not very good light air sailing boats.

Dufour and Bavaria lesser build quality than above and, less market share. Not great light air sailors.

Moody is a higher build quality than all the above, more unique, but should be considered more of a motor sailor based on weight, hull and cabin design. Beautiful boats, though.

Now...entering the more elite:

Hallberg-Rassey are well built, thoughtfully designed for ocean sailing. Very stout vessels. These boats typically have teak decks which for some people is a detractor due to the possibility of leaking over time.

Swans should be on this list, too, even though you didn't ask about swans. They are very safe vessels that are ocean going. They do however need a little bit to be desired down below in terms of creature comfort. That said, the sailing ability of swans is near the top.

Oyster is in a class by itself.
They have excellent sailing capabilities while maintaining beautiful creature comforts down below.

Discovery is mid range of these elite yachts with reasonable sailing characteristics with a lot of comfort down below.

Hinckleys should also be included in this list. They are still handmade and customizable. Instantly recognizable and gorgeous, high quality vessels.

Also in this upper crust of sailing vessels you should include Hylas. They have a twaron hull, they are beautiful down below, and sail well.

The other differences between all of these vessels that I did not discuss would be which of them are direct drive versus sail drive, and what engine they come with.
To me, a sail drive is a detractor from a boat. Some people love them. I personally prefer shaft drives because I've gotten very used to prop walk on my own boat and how it helps me maneuver her as well as serviceability. Also, I have been on many yachts where the cone drive begins to slip and makes it difficult to engage the engine.

Also, many of the production boats come with yanmar engines which I prefer, however some of the other boats come with either Volvo Penta engines, or westerbeke. Parts for Volvo and yanmar can be somewhat pricey with the former being more expensive than the latter. I have read multiple accounts of people being unable to source parts for their Volvo engines, or the prices are astronomical. That's not to say that yanmar is bargain basement, but personally, I have never had a problem getting a part for my 30-year-old yanmar and I never thought the expense was unreasonable.

In an attempt to try to answer your question, there is no succinct pro and con list because the pros and cons might be subjective. For example, Halberg Rassey boats typically come in center cockpit so if you don't like center cockpit that might not be the boat for you. In terms of sailing you where you are going, they all will, but some more comfortably than others.

I would say the biggest negative aspect of the production boats is the interior materials are of lesser quality. For example the wood is not wood, it's a laminate press board where in the higher quality boats it's still real teak. In the production boats, the stainless steel is not the best 316 and will show some rust (I have seen this on numerous brand new beneteaus, for example). On the production boats, the electronics will most likely be the lower end of the spectrum whereas on the higher priced, semi-custom boats, the electronics package is typically top of the line.


Good luck,
Ben

WOW thank you Ben, firstly for taking the time to fully read my post and then giving a positive measure reply, which by the way is very useful! I shall pass this on to my SO and then we can start the long journey of looking for a yacht. Thanks once again. Kelsey x

[L-Oaf]

Originally Posted by carlosproa

So your experience is on power boats?

There are some variables to sort out. It may be a good idea to pick a random sailboat for a weekend and see how you feel on the space, motion, and required physical and mental skills. I am not saying sailboats are harder to handle, but you might discover what areas are negotiable and which ones are not. Specially your significant other should feel comfortable on her new potential new living arrangements vs what is experience on a motor boat.

Having had every type of motor boat imaginable with layouts that differ massively and with every other configuration of electronics, toilets, systems, beds, heating/air con, and also having chartered a few sailing boats in the past I am confident that we know what works for us, and my SO will not settle for something that is not right for him or indeed both of us. Thanks Kelsey x

[MikeHoncho]

Originally Posted by L-Oaf

Thanks for the replies. We have both lived together on boats for lengthy periods, we both know what works for us,. In terms of handling, we have short handed small (35ft) twin screw boats with and without bow and stern thrusters
Up to 56ft, and many single screw displacement motor yachts up to 100ft with displacement of over 100tons. My SO knows what he is doing and fortunately so do I, we are both graced by having been boating virtually all of our lives, he he has in the past lived aboard for many years and was a marine engineer for a long time, and we have both had some but limited sailing experience, usually on a charter. My question was about the difference between mass production yachts and others in terms of quality and suitability for purpose?

Apologies for not answering your question. Have at it then

[L-Oaf]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

Do you have some burning desire to learn sailing or will it simply be used as a slow moving power boat?

Unless you have a deep desire to learn of sailing or do ocean crossings, I would go with a trawler or power cat. Depending on how price sensitive you are to fuel costs, will determine how fast of a boat to pick.

We both had intense jobs dealing with people and working at 100MPH in the past so we now have have a desire to harness the power of the elements and travel long distances in peace and quiet and in no particular rush, so 7Knts if achievable sounds perfect!

[L-Oaf]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

You need to call insurance companies and talk to them about your intentions. Odds of you getting insurance on a 40 to 50 in this market with zero sailing experience or ownership is very slim to none. They dont care about you cruising on your friends big powerboats, where your slept or were an engineer.

When you tell them you want to insure a 50' sailboat the first thing they are going to ask you is how many years you have owned and sailed a similar sized sailboat before. When you say "None" they're going to hang up on you.

Having owned and cruised vessels up to 30M in the recent past and going back over 30 years, and having had no insurance claims ever, and still hold insurance on several craft we own, I doubt very much indeed that we will have any issues on securing insurance for a 40-50ft sailing yacht! Thanks Kelsey x