Lost at Sea from S/V 'Triple Stars'

[Captain_Orion]

Tragic:

Woman Overboard 285 Miles Off Bermuda : Bernews.com

[hummingway]

That's pretty tough and reminder of the importance of a harness. In 30 footers you don't have much chance once you're off the boat.

[SaltyMonkey]

Originally Posted by hummingway

That's pretty tough and reminder of the importance of a harness. In 30 footers you don't have much chance once you're off the boat.

How do you know she didn't have one on? Tethers and harness break. Or people slip out of them. 30ft wave is a lot of weight.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

How do you know she didn't have one on? Tethers and harness break. Or people slip out of them. 30ft wave is a lot of weight.

I didn't presume she didn't.

[SaltyMonkey]

Just been thinking quite a lot about this incident myself over the last week, and harnesses particularly, and how we tend to have a false sense of security - that if we follow all the rules and cross the dots, everything is going to be AOK.

This is extremely sad...

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Just been thinking quite a lot about this incident myself over the last week, and harnesses particularly, and how we tend to have a false sense of security - that if we follow all the rules and cross the dots, everything is going to be AOK.

This is extremely sad...

If there's one thing that reading CF and threads like this shows it's that the ocean is powerful. I seems that things happen on the ocean that no amount of preparedness can save you from, rogue waves come to mind.

I knew a fellow who was a paraplegic. He'd been a jet pilot and had flew F-18's 100 feet off the ground. He was at the beach with his family and got hit by a 3 foot wave. It snapped his spine.

Still, things do happen that being prepared can help with.

[SaltyMonkey]

Agreed.

But I guess it gets old - the posturing of words: "expert" and "experienced" and "knowledgable" and "prepared"...thinking oneself somehow better than the next chap because of miles, education etc. It's all a projection. We need to stay humble - never forgetting we are always beginners compared to the power of the ocean.

Todays thought: even a personal EPIRB might have not helped her.

[CarlF]

The trouble is, if you don't risk anything, you risk even more.

Erica Jong

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey

Agreed.

But I guess it gets old - the posturing of words: "expert" and "experienced" and "knowledgable" and "prepared"...thinking oneself somehow better than the next chap because of miles, education etc. It's all a projection. We need to stay humble - never forgetting we are always beginners compared to the power of the ocean.

Todays thought: even a personal EPIRB might have not helped her.

Perhaps. When your number is up, it's up. Harnesses, tethers, PFDs, PLBs, etc. do more than just instill false confidence. They give you chances to survive that just going into the water will not. Even the simple action of having a PFD inflatable collar keep your head facing up if you've had a whack on the head or you are passing out from the cold can mean the difference from drowning at the surface or living long enough to be hauled out.

Contrast this with car airbags, which to my mind function partly to keep alive idiot drivers who can now survive reckless speeding, and partly to keep alive the people they hit who are driving prudently. A rogue wave is more like having a hundred cars drop on the boat from several stories up. There's not really an "airbag" scenario in effect: you either stay attached or are snapped off.

[SaltyMonkey]

Indeed, I am not discouraging the masses from being knowledgable and being well equipped and prepared, which we all should do to our own financial ability. Just bringing to mind that just because you are prepared and have experience, and think you know the weather squash zones better than the next guy, doesn't really mean squat. It's all a projection - how we compare ourselves to the next bloke and think we are better, or how much gear we buy at either worse-marine or your local commercial fishing chandlery. Nature doesn't give a [moderator edit]. Let's not ever forget that.

[Cormorant]

I recall in the book "Red Sky in Mourning" the wife was below when their boat got rolled by a huge wave. The husband had been clipped in to a tether in the cockpit . . . and the D-ring parted and he was lost.

[estarzinger]

I feel really really badly for the husband. It makes me tear up just thinking about the possibility of beth in the water slowly drowning and not being able to get to her. It would take a long time to recover from that - actually not sure I would ever really recover.

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

Even the simple action of having a PFD inflatable collar keep your head facing up if you've had a whack on the head or you are passing out from the cold can mean the difference from drowning at the surface or living long enough to be hauled out.

I agree with your general point and almost all you specifically wrote.

But just thought I would comment that it is now generally agreed that a pfd (including an autoinflate) will not save an unconscious MOB in any sort of waves. I was just recently involved in a major discussion on this because Ken Reed came out with it publicly in an article (mentioning why they have disabled their auto-inflate features on their pfds on rambler and Puma). They are worried about negative consequences of autoinflate (accidental inflation's and about being trapped under the boat in a capsize), and don't think the facts support an 'unconscious saving' benefit.

Other people think the prime benefit of autoinflate is to prevent the 'gasp reflex' if you go in cold water while conscious, and think that benefit overcomes the negatives (accidental inflation and being trapped under the boat). I have no personal opinion on that, and prefer to stay on the boat with a tether But most everyone agrees that the unfortunate plain fact is you are pretty well screwed if you go in the water unconscious.

[jzk]

Originally Posted by Cormorant

I recall in the book "Red Sky in Mourning" the wife was below when their boat got rolled by a huge wave. The husband had been clipped in to a tether in the cockpit . . . and the D-ring parted and he was lost.

I was in Annapolis one year, and stumbled into a seminar called "surviving a hurricane" or something to that effect given by Tami Oldham Ashcraft. Man did the seminar get pretty intense when I found out what happened to her. From pictures of them in the cockpit playing the guitar at sunset to her waking up to a dis-masted boat and her boyfriend's broken tether, out in the middle of nowhere with little sailing knowledge. I seem to recall that the event happened many years ago, and I suspect that tethers, harnesses and jacklines have come a very long way since then.

However, every day is a risk. There is a VERY SMALL chance that wearing a seat belt could kill you in that you could get into a collision where the seatbelt could cause a fatality where, in that situation, one not wearing the seatbelt would have survived. But it is all about risk. Despite the previous example, it is way more risky to not wear your seatbelt.

The danger of wearing a harness, I guess, is being dragged by the boat or being submerged/knocked out in a rollover like in this year's Mac Race. But that is an entirely separate issue being a very light race boat, etc. I wear it.

[Nateman]

Was she wearing a harness then?

[Cormorant]

Which 'she' are you referring to?

We don't know about Jan Anderson on Triple Stars -- just speculating. Even if she was it could've parted.

Tami Ashcraft on Hazana (back in 1983) was down below in the cockpit, though I believe she was tethered even in there to a table. The capsize knocked her unconscious fer several hours.
Here's a page that synopsizes her story:
Red Sky in Mourning Background Information