Our shrinking rights and the fight in Oriental NC

[Blue Crab]

As word continues to spread about this situation, I wonder if the boat yards will suffer? There are a lot of skilled boat repair people in Oriental. Given the location on the Waterway, and the lack of anchoring room even before the marina development, this might be a good spot to have a mooring field. As compared to the many other communities that build them just to keep folks from anchoring.

[Blue Crab]

For the record, Sea Gate is a private little marina just down the Waterway from Oriental. Small store with cheap beer, diesel, clean shower, laundry, and two transient slips for 1.50 a ft per or 1.00 per by the week. 6' at MLW. Can't be a much friendlier spot on the whole planet. Long ride to stores, however. Beer is one buck on Wednesday. A buck sixty otherwise. And it's a hurricane hole. No anchorage at all, however.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Not correct on 11, 13 and 14.

11. Oriental did not allow anything. Oriental had no more control over the use of the anchorage then than it has now. Marina Permitting is a state and federal process. The town might have been a stakeholder, buit they did not make the decision.

13. The dockmaster collects slip rent for slip owners that allow their slips to be used by transients when they are away. This is not a commercial for profit marina. This is not a business in the way most people think of a marina business it is a condominium association.

14. I don't see any posts from non-boaters. Some non-boaters have been quoted from other sources such as letters to the editor on town dock and the CAMA document, but I have not seen those people actually participating in the thread. Please point one out to me if I missed their post.

I would even somewhat argue that 12 is wrong. The marina has been in existence for over 10 years. The big problem now is that three boats have been taking the anchorage on more or less a permanent basis by anchoring in a manner that fouls the anchorage for other users. The ugly boat and anchoring rights issues are red herrings IMO. I don't care what their boats look like, it is the fouled anchorage that is the problem.

On item 14: We are boaters and we have been stuck out in the unprotected part of the harbor...but why shouldn't landlubbers have a say in how this PUBLIC space is used? Aren't we being a little elitest by saying thier views and opinons are irrelivent?

[Delancey]

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

Not correct on 11, 13 and 14.

11. Oriental did not allow anything. Oriental had no more control over the use of the anchorage then than it has now. Marina Permitting is a state and federal process. The town might have been a stakeholder, buit they did not make the decision.

13. The dockmaster collects slip rent for slip owners that allow their slips to be used by transients when they are away. This is not a commercial for profit marina. This is not a business in the way most people think of a marina business it is a condominium association.

14. I don't see any posts from non-boaters. Some non-boaters have been quoted from other sources such as letters to the editor on town dock and the CAMA document, but I have not seen those people actually participating in the thread. Please point one out to me if I missed their post.

I would even somewhat argue that 12 is wrong. The marina has been in existence for over 10 years. The big problem now is that three boats have been taking the anchorage on more or less a permanent basis by anchoring in a manner that fouls the anchorage for other users. The ugly boat and anchoring rights issues are red herrings IMO. I don't care what their boats look like, it is the fouled anchorage that is the problem.

Wait a minute. You say they town said no to bazillion dollar Walmart building inside town limits but they were completely powerless to stop a $6-10million mixed use development on their own waterfront?

That's as incredulous as saying it was not built for profit. I have seen low income housing and this ain't it. Builders build for profit, not for charity. The people who bought condos or slips here did so because they expected them to appreciate in value, not to lose money. In other words they did so "to make a profit"

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by Delancy

Easy there big fella. Don't mistake my sarcasm for sincerity.

At the core of it I feel it's most unfortunate that those would prefer to anchor out and dink in to shore to enjoy what Oriental has to offer no longer have the option to do so. That a few bad apples exacerbate a bad situation has little bearing on the root cause of this, the marina development.

Be advised I am exactly that guy with limited means who prefers to avoid marinas. I have never advocated for the anchorage fiends other than to point out that most of the planet works on a first come first serve basis and that life is not fair.

I fully agree they have overstayed their welcome and should have taken a hint a long time ago but also point out that in the absence of laws prohibiting their activities, there is no basis for them to be compelled to move and maybe the town should quit their bitching.

My bad. It seems we're fighting to agree with each other!

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by krafthaus

I'm not sure I'd ever want to stop in Oriental. Not sure if I should feel sorry for that town or not.

This is a sad and sorry thread that has digressed into a circular argument. Everyone should stop and move on.

Too much time has been spent on this drivel and there are so many other positive things people could be putting their energy into.

This is a sad and sorry thread that has digressed into a circular argument. Everyone should stop and move on.

Agreed. I am perhaps more passionate about it because I have actually paddled my SUP board right by the French boat, and I long to sand it and paint it.



But I'm a working stiff with sanding and painting of my own to do.

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by Blue Crab

For the record, Sea Gate is a private little marina just down the Waterway from Oriental. Small store with cheap beer, diesel, clean shower, laundry, and two transient slips for 1.50 a ft per or 1.00 per by the week. 6' at MLW. Can't be a much friendlier spot on the whole planet. Long ride to stores, however. Beer is one buck on Wednesday. A buck sixty otherwise. And it's a hurricane hole. No anchorage at all, however.

Hi Blue,

We kept our boat there a month with the intention of staying longer. You are right - friendly, little store, cheap gas and diesel. Friendly folks.

- however -

We moved our boat after a month because:

1. Very boneyard look to Seagate. We felt boats were rotting in slips near sinking. Emotional or not, that gave us a bad vibe. But we accepted it short term because we were close to the coast, cheaply.
2. On one of our away times, our power cord was too tight, was pulled out of the boat, with the hot end hitting the water, and nothing was done for two weeks. That is - no call, no pulling the cord out, no notice. We arrived with the hot end of the cord still in the water, the dock breaker had obviously tripped.
3. The lady who runs the dock store, essentially the "dock master" if you want to call her that, was the live-aboard next-door neighbor to our boat. Every day on her way to work, she would have to pass by that hot cord dangling in the water. (dare I say, I don't appreciate a lady walking by that and not stopping )

Long story short, we felt that Seagate was not a good long-term place.


But their showers are awfully nice.



The diesel is cheap, but due to low depths, we suspect it may get fewer turns than other places, so we opt for either Jarrett Bay or MCYB, which definitely has some fast-moving diesel. Very fresh.

[GothVanhellsing]

Originally Posted by Mark Johnson

Very intelligent, factual, and well written Bill...

REGARDING THE ORIENTAL ANCHORAGE ANARCHISTS:
I care a little bit about "ugly" boats giving us all a bad rap by association, AND I care a bit more that they're LONG TERM illegally shitting in the River.

What I REALLY care about, however, is that I can't make weekend cruises to Oriental from New Bern anymore, OR stop over in Oriental on my way to Ocracoke or Cape Lookout. Nor can the "snow birds" or anyone else traveling the ICW, use this one anchorage. This "now unavailable" anchorage is the ONE best and most logical stop over (with amenities on shore within walking distance), for MANY miles in all directions. This is a big deal for the thousands of cruisers that get there at the end of the day, and can't find room.

These 3 utterly inconsiderate boats and their owners, have stayed WAY too long, AND taken up the entire anchorage, by doing exactly what you said, Bill, (and me earlier), Multiple anchor moorings...

Getting proper dockage for us is not just too expensive, we don't fit! We are 21' wide, and with our huge skeg & single 18 HP engine, we have a 150' turning radius. So... we haven't stopped over by boat at Oriental in years!

Anchoring rights and "Hard times" has nothing to do with anything here! After setting out on my first self built cruising boat in the 70s, I had NO dinghy, and I got back and forth from living on the hook in Key West, by swimming the side stroke (in a strong current) with a long set of free diving fins... (even carrying groceries or my laundry out of the water with my free hand)! I had no more than $50 to my name most of the time as well, and I never got any government handouts either! Nevertheless, I would NOT have blocked others from using a small transient anchorage, because of my "hard times". I would've and did, always find a way to get my needs met, that in NO way infringed on the rights of others.

Now that I am too old for such foolishness... I would STILL find a way to live my anchored out lifestyle, that didn't infringe on the anchoring rights of others. It is called "common courtesy", and these "anchoring anarchist" obviously don't have any!

The obvious issue here is that these folks have anchored incorrectly, in a very small space, and stayed for FAR FAR too long, considering the extreme public need for the space available in the anchorage. This ISN'T a large long term liveaboard anchorage as I said, it is a small short term stop over, for the numerous transients that pass through in route...

The fact that this has garnered soo much discussion here is ridiculous. This is a
"no-brainer"! These folks in the Oriental anchorage are inconsiderate of the countless others that would like to anchor here, plain and simple. They have overstayed their welcome as I said... a LONG time ago, and should take themselves and their boats, (hard times or not), to a place more appropriate to what they are doing. Permanently moving in here, is shameful.

This IS "Cruisers Forum" btw:
Past posts from cruisers that don't really "cruise", as well as those from folks that do but have never stayed at this particular anchorage, or even seen it first hand, are irrelevant opinions.

Pardon my being pedantic here, but THIS IS NOT ABOUT ANCHORING RIGHTS, LAND VS BOAT LIFE, HAVES VS HAVE NOTS, DEMs VS REPs, Or ANYTHING other than BEING RESPONSIBLE, and exercising consideration of others in all aspects of our lives!

PS... Prior to this 3 boat long term liveaboard anchorage takeover in Oriental, a cruiser could expect to squeeze in there to stay over for the night, 95% of the time, then move on... With everyone laying to one hook, and a few boats barely protected by the breakwater, about 8 or possibly even 10 cruisers, (with considerable skill), could fit in there. The key was anchoring skills and their moving on in a day or two. I used to always find a spot to anchor in the past.
You will notice, that there are a lot of contrary comments from folks that have never anchored here, or they would know this to be the case!

Funny because I remember last spring there were 12 boats in the the harbor. And as far as now,,, well
AnchorageCam | TownDock.net | Oriental NC News, Weather, Photos

That is the way the harbor has looked for the past 3 months EMPTY, A GHOST TOWN, like it does every year between transient seasons. I love how you tell about a harbor you say you don't go to because you can't, and then say that you can't because you read you can't on a blog. Boats in the harbor is nothing new like I quoted more then once I might add from the letter that started this all "In my 10 years of cruising, without fail, each time I have visited Oriental, there is at least a couple of long-term boats anchored in the tiny harbor".

[GothVanhellsing]

Originally Posted by valhalla360

You can play semantics with legal language, but when a boat has been tied to the bottom in one spot for a year, that qualifies as permanent in most peoples minds.

We don't live in a system of "most people's minds". We live in a system of laws. Even if we did live in a system of most people's minds you would be bumming on the harbor because the truth is the number of people who even care that live here is very small but boisterous. Now that Walmart may (brace yourself) come here and offer low prices and more selection, the number that care about the live abaords has become almost none. I believe something like 2 out of the 3 last planned harbor meetings were canceled over the last 2 weeks because almost no one is showing up.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing

We don't live in a system of "most people's minds". We live in a system of laws. Even if we did live in a system of most people's minds you would be bumming on the harbor because the truth is the number of people who even care that live here is very small but boisterous. Now that Walmart may (brace yourself) come here and offer low prices and more selection, the number that care about the live abaords has become almost none. I believe something like 2 out of the 3 last planned harbor meetings were canceled over the last 2 weeks because almost no one is showing up.

Goth,

Give it up! You got caught 'farting in church'! Tuck your tail, move on, and hope the next 'church' you enter won't recognize you. Geesh!

[Sand Castle]

Originally Posted by GothVanhellsing

I have never been treated with such malice, defamation, slander, false accusations and contempt as I have been by the fine people who run this website. You have printed without the journalistic integrity to examine and research all sides of the issues, that is, the rights of live- aboards in harbors.

1. malice, defamation, slander, false accusations and contempt - Does this mean by printing letters to the editor? You believe they should not do this? Or they should screen out the hurtful ones? Which accusations were false?
2. the fine people who run this website - if they are so fine... I think you mean the letters-to-the-editor people, not the people running towndock.net?
3. You have printed without the journalistic integrity to examine and research all sides of the issues - A small town web-paper interviewed the French crew, and printed their answers. Plus they have been showing up at the council meetings and printing those outcomes. What have they missed - considering they're not the Washington Post or New York Times?
4. that is, the rights of live- aboards in harbors. okay, so yourself, you have all the right in the world to be there. It's a fact. Towndock hasn't disagreed with you. The fact that it's been a long time and people are examining creating a mooring field or other limits say, like Carolina Beach, impinges your rights how exactly?

Sorry, I'm just a little bored and lazy today where I've been working for a month straight. I'm probably just stirring the hornet's nest again.


I really enjoy the debate actually.


We'll have a beer and play a game of chess some time.

[Wrong]

Anyone object to injecting a reasonable amount of objectivity into this conversation?

First, cruisers have druthers. Some insist in anchoring in none less than 30'. If you are in this conversation, why?

Others, by virtue of boat size and length of keel couldn't anchor anywhere in Orient - even if there weren't any other boats. If you are in this conversation, why?

Greatest depth I've seen mentioned thus far is in the channel @ 10'. Nobody can anchor there.

Some shoal draft boats could have anchored in 4' where the marina is now located... I could have.

The Orient anchorage appears to be most suitable for shoal draft boats drawing 5', maybe 6' and less. If your boat is in this range, then you are probably justified in participating in this conversation.

The rest of you don't have an iron in the Orient fire, and are most likely simply here stating your opinion. But, to the extent your comments may focus on the inconsiderate 'bad' boaters, bums, freeloaders, and appearance of the boats at the center of controversy - you are contributing nothing useful to resolving this debate.

Of legitimate concern is whether any of the boats are anchored in such a manner that other boaters who would anchor a reasonably safe distance away cannot swing on the hook. Seems to me if someone would complain politely enough this could be resolved. On the other hand, if said boat is on the margin of the main anchorage and must deploy bow and stern anchors to avoid going aground - I'd say the owner is doing everyone else a favour by anchoring in this spot. Other sailors are likely to anchor away from this spot, and if skilled enough will judge the swing of their boat so as to avoid colliding with the 'stationary' boat. Could be a piling, mooring ball or any other stationary obstruction. No? It just happens to be a boat. Of course if the boat is in the middle of 'prime' area, it should in response to a reasonable request either move to a spot where anchoring this way is o.k., or abandon the second anchor.

I haven't seen any photos of the creek anchorage. But, I understand it is farthur from access to land and services. Anyone who rows or paddles would naturally want to anchor closer in.

Which brings me to the next point. If we are to be considerate boaters, it seems only reasonable anyone with a motorized dinghy would be happy to anchor farther out, surrendering more convenient spots to those who row or paddle to shore.

[Captain Bill]

Originally Posted by Delancy

Wait a minute. You say they town said no to bazillion dollar Walmart building inside town limits but they were completely powerless to stop a $6-10million mixed use development on their own waterfront?

That's as incredulous as saying it was not built for profit. I have seen low income housing and this ain't it. Builders build for profit, not for charity. The people who bought condos or slips here did so because they expected them to appreciate in value, not to lose money. In other words they did so "to make a profit"

They really didn't have the ability to stop the marina. The only thing they could have done is stopped the building on shore, but they would have had a legal reason for doing so. They might have been able to use zoning laws, but this waterfont was already developed. The water side of the marina is outside of the town's jurisdiction. That is why the legislature must pass a law allowing them to control the harbor. If they had control of the harbor there might already be anchoring restrictions. You see it is not the town's harbor though it is located adjacent to the town. The harbor belongs to the federal government under management by the state government. The federal government turned management of waters below mhw and within the states territory over to the states in the 90's.

Yes, clearly the marina was originally built for profit and I'm sure the original developers did quite well. I never said it wasn't. That was over 10 years ago so get over it. I said it is not now operated for profit. The landside facilities and docks are owned by a condominium association that is by law not allowed to make a profit. It is not a business. Most of the slips are owned by individuals storing their own boats. I know one guy who bought a slip there because he wanted one in town. I don't know anyone who really expected a profit that bought a slip. The long run goal was mostly to be able to sell the slip for what they paid for it and net a free slip for what ever number of years they kept it. If the price went up a bit so what. It will probably never completely offset the taxes and condo fees they had to pay in the meantime.



With regards to Seagate Marina. SeaGate is a for profit marina, not a town. It is a business. There is virtually nothing near there in the way of businesses. There is no comparison at all to Oriental harbor.

[Blue Crab]

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

... With regards to Seagate Marina. SeaGate is a for profit marina, not a town. It is a business. There is virtually nothing near there in the way of businesses. There is no comparison at all to Oriental harbor.

Ouch.

Hey Sand Castle, you are right on a couple of points for sure. The Dockmaster you described is no longer here. You definitely didn't get professional service. Also I hadn't considered the diesel turnover. Thx.