Do the potty police have science on their side?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Lake, your suggestions make a lot of sense. However I am unaware of any NDZ in the entire United States that represents the compromise that you suggest. They tend to be all-in.

There seems to be a legal/procedural reason for that, having to do with the current loopholes in the CWA for commercial shipping, not much appetite for this sort of legislation, and something to do with the current climate (no not that one, I mean in DC). A blanket NDZ is the least-effort, most likely to pass approach, it seems.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm not surprised that you'd think that.


“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”


― Otto von Bismarck

Please tell us that quoting Bismarck (of all people) to refute my comment that "politics is the art of securing & maintaining power" was an attempt at irony & humor.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Please tell us that quoting Bismarck (of all people) to refute my comment that "politics is the art of securing & maintaining power" was an attempt at irony & humor.

I was just providing the attribution.

by 1871, he skillfully used balance of power diplomacy to maintain Germany's position in a Europe which, despite many disputes and war scares, remained at peace. For historian Eric Hobsbawm, it was Bismarck who "remained undisputed world champion at the game of multilateral diplomatic chess for almost twenty years after 1871, [and] devoted himself exclusively, and successfully, to maintaining peace between the powers"

... so he wasn't without some skills.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Sure. Snap and done.

There are a number of reasons that thinwater apprised us of as to why such a law could not find the light of day. Some of the other links of the legal details point that out as well.

Wrong. What thinwater apprised us was that declaring the entirety of Puget Sound an NDZ was the easiest way of preventing cruise ships from discharging into the sound, and once such regs are adopted they are very difficult to amend. What thinwater said makes Puget Sound unique is that it does not fall within what defines the 3-mile limit, so it is effectively "offshore" in terms of sewage discharge. You really have no idea, do you, whether other maritime regs governing commercial passenger vessels could have been used to remedy the issue. But that wouldn't have been nearly as attention getting or politically correct.

You too, huh? Pissing off some type 1 owners is more harmful than stopping cruiseliners and commercial boats from dumping in Puget Sound. ...Ok.

Another false, misleading, all-or-nothing statement. You are a slow learner indeed.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I was just providing the attribution.

That's what I was afraid of. You actually don't understand the irony of quoting Bismarck.

... so he wasn't without some skills.

. . . at securing & maintaining power.

Do yourself a favor and at least read the Wiki on the guy before you dig yourself an even bigger hole.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

You really have no idea, do you, whether other maritime regs governing commercial passenger vessels could have been used to remedy the issue [in Puget Sound]. But that wouldn't have been nearly as attention getting or politically correct.

... or possible?


I'm sure, to complete my eddification, you will tell us what they should have done instead, and how.

(and dude, you're ON FIRE tonight! Impressive!)

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Exile

I admire your ability to be much more concise in your posts than me, but your equally adept ability at politeness just makes some of us look . . . well, rather impolite!

As more than one moderator on this site will attest, that is not my reputation, but it's nice of you to say so.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

I'm not surprised that you'd think that.


“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”


― Otto von Bismarck

Good quote, but today's politics are not being applied with much thought.
It's almost NOT politics, just slavish following of the business of getting votes to maintain their gravy train of government benefits they bestowed to themselves.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Good quote, but today's politics are not being applied with much thought.
It's almost NOT politics, just slavish following of the business of getting votes to maintain their gravy train of government benefits they bestowed to themselves.

... I very much agree with this. OMG. What is wrong with me?

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... I very much agree with this. OMG. What is wrong with me?

Too much leftover Halloween candy?

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Too much leftover Halloween candy?

You mean too little? I get out early to get the good stuff, have a feast, but the sugar rush is over. Crashing.


What was your costume? I dressed up as an upstanding member of society. Everyone laughed.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You mean too little? I get out early to get the good stuff, have a feast, but the sugar rush is over. Crashing.


What was your costume? I dressed up as an upstanding member of society. Everyone laughed.

I was a snowflake this year, but it wasn't any fun 'cause nobody believed it was really me.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

... or possible?


I'm sure, to complete my eddification, you will tell us what they should have done instead, and how.

(and dude, you're ON FIRE tonight! Impressive!)

Definitely too much leftover candy. You think it was all the MAGA hats & signs I have hanging all over the outside of the house that scared the kids off?

If you think the EPA granted WA's NDZ for Puget Sound because it was the only way to restrict cruise ships as opposed to just the easiest way, then go look it up. You may or may not be right, but it beats just posting it without anything to back it up. Whatever you may find, I doubt it's the case in MA or RI, especially now that we know from the Calif. case that the regs allow an exemption for small recreational vessels.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Exile

Definitely too much leftover candy. You think it was all the MAGA hats & signs I have hanging all over the outside of the house that scared the kids off?

If you think the EPA granted WA's NDZ for Puget Sound because it was the only way to restrict cruise ships as opposed to just the easiest way, then go look it up. You may or may not be right, but it beats just posting it without anything to back it up.

Posting without backing it up... is that like claiming that prohibiting dumping from types 1 and 2 MSDs in an NDZ is worse for the environment?


I didn't claim it was the only way, but I very much got the impression that it was about the only way to enact something without several years of wrangling. eg fixing the CWA. I did some reading on that this afternoon; I might continue looking at it tomorrow.

[Exile]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Posting without backing it up... is that like claiming that prohibiting dumping from types 1 and 2 MSDs in an NDZ is worse for the environment?

Seems like most of this thread has been consumed by correcting your mischaracterizations. Can't you find a more productive way to get your points across than your transparent and increasingly pathetic use of strawmen? What I said, many others said, and what should be all too obvious is that prohibiting such discharge discourages their installation & use, and also potentially discourages respect for the regs and thus potential illegal dumping. Why do you think I yanked out one of the few functional pieces of (expensive) equipment on my boat soon after purchase? I think there was also some reference to this, btw, in either the white paper or the piece from the CBF.

I didn't claim it was the only way, but I very much got the impression that it was about the only way to enact something without several years of wrangling. eg fixing the CWA. I did some reading on that this afternoon; I might continue looking at it tomorrow.

Couldn't hurt to do some of your own research instead of all the assumptions you're making. It also couldn't hurt to find out what the evidence is that Type 2 treated sewage from cruise ships is a threat. The little I know about Puget Sound is that it's a huge, deep body of saltwater that has strong currents. You know, just like Avalon, Great Salt Pond, and that area you can't wait to visit off Ft. Walton Beach.

Btw, have you ever had to install a $1,000+ piece of equipment on your own boat, only to find out after-the-fact that, although officially approved, it was then illegal to use it? If you have, then you shouldn't be so quick to condemn others who believe that they're getting unnecessarily screwed over for no good end. If not, then I can understand why you think it's no big deal. Or are you still assuming, despite info presented to the contrary, that "most" Type 1's have holding tanks?