Bolt on Keel Issue

[Adelie]

I think repair is going to depend on the keel top. Is there a horz flange across the top or is it just the end of the keel plate?
The Cal20 and the Ranger26 have flanges across the top of the keel. The flange in the Cal stands proud of the hull, and on the Ranger the hull has an divot so the flange is more or less flush with the hull. I have been involved in bolt replacement for both and in both cases thru bolts were used and the keel was not removed.
For the Cal bolts were removed one by one and replaced. Original bedding was Dolphinite so that is what I used. I smeared bedding up the hole and on the bolt shaft so it got on the threads but I didn’t care, it’s not going to leak or rust within my lifetime.

If you have keel where the bolts are embedded in the keel then you need to be worrying about corrosion of the bolt itself which would be very difficult to replace.

[C420sailor]

That keel either hasn’t come off in decades, or wasn’t done right when it was removed.

You can do the joint scrape and seal...but it is a band aid. It’ll last a few years, and your keel rot will likely be more advanced. But if you’re tight on $, don’t sail far or in demanding environments, and aren’t going to keep the boat long...it isn’t the worst idea.

Me? I’m a ‘do it once, do it right’ slash ‘buy once cry once’ guy. I’d accept that this keel job is well overdue, and drop the keel and do it correctly.

Beware the guys on here who will tell you to slap some paint on it and “go sailing.”

[Dymaxion]

Come in from the side of each nut with and angle grinder and take off a side of the nut. The heat from grinding will help free the nut, a 1/2" drive socket with breaker bar onto the nut will likely be enough to get the nut off. Assess the bolt and threads, maybe they are still good, just needing new plates then fresh nuts and washers. Torque down to factory specs, all the while hoping the bolt doesn't break. If it does, call in a welder...

[Jim Cate]

Mark, if the owner is able to pull the studs (and they are not bolts, folks) one at a time for inspection, and if they do not show corrosion in the area below the hull, why would he need to drop the keel for inspection? Such joints often have corrosion at t he outer edge of the join, corrosion that does not propagate inward and cause damage to the suspending connectors. And corrosion in the bilge isn't specifically related to the unseen areas below, is it? Replacement of the studs, nuts and backers is, of course, mandated.

If there is damage to the fiberglass in way of the studs, then yes, dropping and repairing is indicated. However from my reading of his posts there is no evidence of such damage as yet discovered.

A side observation: professional repairers are often quite willing to encourage owners to spend their money on repairs, citing "what-ifs" to support their viewpoints. Such repairs may or may not be essential to basic safety considerations. Making low cost inspections (like drawing the studs for inspection) is a viable first step before committing large sums to a possibly unnecessary procedure.

And yes, I am one of your despised non-professionals, but I've been around boats for a good chunk of my adult life and seen a lot of bad advice proffered by "experts".

Jim

[Dymaxion]

Gad!! The truth is in the studs, not in anyone's amateur or professional opinion. Fear mongering and what-ifs are invalid. Stick a 6-sided socket that you know is the correct size, not oversized due to rust, and unscrew the nut!! Meaning clean the nut off thoroughly on all six side and fit the snuggest socket on you can. If the nut begrudgingly comes loose, then the stud is solid enough that a fresh new nut and well cleaned up threads will allow you to retorque it to builders spec. If the nut and stud come out together, hooray, you can put in a new stud, new nut and have at it. Okay, so your keel has been loose for years, wobbling about a bit and allowing water to enter from below the waterline. Have you tasted the water to see if is salty? Or fresh from intrusion via the cabin top. If it's fresh water, congratulations, your keel is water tight. If it's salty, then you need to reseal it. Find out if your keel is flush mounted, drawn up against a flat surface, with a layer of sealant/adhesive between the top of the keel and the hull. Or if it is fitted up into a pocket within the hull. In either case, get an angle grinder with a very thin cutoff blade in it. Use the thin blade to clear out the old sealant. You could lower the keel a bit, but why bother. Buy a cheapo mini grease gun, buy the hypodermic needle tip and some empty cartridge tubes. Full the tubes with your favorite sealant, jam the needle well into to slot you just cut with the angle grinder pumping sealant in until it appears at the surface of the keel joint. Move the needle around the keel seam an inch or do at a time and keep pumping in the sealant until done. Go back inside and torque your keel boats up to spec. Wait 5 minutes and retorque. No, I'm not a boat builder, just a tired old aerospace engineer who likes low buck common sense solutions, not the freak out end of the world pronouncements by professionals, who in their world are correct, dropping the keel is the absolute best way to go. But if you've verified your keels bolts are good enough to take full torque, then your keel is not coming off, and if you've sealed up the cracks/leaks, what else is the to do... go sailing?

[goboatingnow]

who likes low buck common sense solutions,

a bodgers charter !

Simply accessing the top of the stud could conceal damage at the keel interface rust in the stud keel interface etc

[Manateeman]

I doubt it will be possible to remove these bolts from within the boat. It might not be possible to unscrew them from the keel ever. Rust expands and the OP photos shows rust on the exterior hull/keel joint and the nuts in his words are falling apart. Suggestions were made about not dropping the keel...without...any idea of the condition of the bolts. In my opinion, bad advice.
The OP stated he wants to keep this boat “forever” and further, he wants the job done correctly and is willing to “ bite the bullet”by which I’m assuming he means further investment even if it’s costly.
I went to the time and trouble to ask another qualified person to give me their opinion. I did NOT say “walk away”...she did.
I don’t believe I have ever told anyone to disregard ANY opinion expressed on the forum. I have stated readers should evaluate the experience, knowledge and professional credentials of posters and judge their worth accordingly.

I worked for an OEM who built two very differently constructed boats. One was about as ballistic a vessel which could be constructed. It exceeded passenger vessel standards. Experts from Europe, the ABS, the USCG, the US Navy, and well qualified Naval Architects looked over every detail of the construction. The other boat produced was designed to meet demands of the market...fast, light, low initial cost. Different boats for different buyers.
The boat the OP has purchased I was not built to inspected vessel standards.
I’ve tried to give him advice on how to do this repair correctly because although he is not taking paying passengers, his passengers deserve the same degree of protection as those who board an inspected vessel.
I have tried to be forthright about my misgivings with regard to specific methods of construction such as bolt on keels. I’ve seen new boats become insurance total wrecks after one rock collision. What do you end up with AFTER it’s fixed. The very same potential structural weakness and vulnerability to groundings.
You going to haul out after every bump in the night? Or just guess that wasn’t a big log you hit. How often did the builder suggest inspecting the bolts.
Cars are tested to withstand wrecks to have sufficient strength to protect passengers. Aircraft. You need a license to repair one. I don’t tell boat owners to open up a Pandora box and just hope it won’t cost much.
So go ahead and keep running over the manatee crew’s opinions. LOL.
I’m done with this thread.
Mark

[USA1791]

Thanks for giving me your opinion on that and asking someone else you know as well. Tomorrow going to call the boat yard and see if they can check it out and how much it would cost to get it dropped. I wanna make sure this job is done right and find out if there are any other safety issues related to this.

I was wondering though. The previous owner of this boat had it in freshwater. So between 2011-2020 this was a freshwater only boat, does that change anything you think?

And when we got the boat delivered down here, there was standing water in it. We’ve been doing vac shop sucking it out, but every time a hard rain comes in fills back up because of the cracked windows we haven’t replaced all of yet. After removing deck hardware a lot of the screws had rust on them, so that’s all been sealed up with six 10 and did a quick fix with windows with some sealant so water leaks should be stopped now to prevent anymore coming in.

Some quick questions:
1. I checked the deck around where the mast goes and it feels sturdy, but a few hairline cracks around it. Inside the saloon I don’t see if anything’s been damaged for the compression post. Is there anything specific to this scenario I should look for?

2. Triaxial epoxy? Would that be triaxial fiberglass? And by strengthening the hull more, do you mean just random spots I should layup on?

It’s been hard trying to find some information on this manufacturer since it doesn’t seem like many are over on this side of the pond. I did find a website of one owner up in north and he’s got a blog showing all the rust on his iron keel and just sanding it down and cleaning it with rust away and painting.

Spent all day yesterday researching to find some sort of owners association and finally did, all in French but luckily there is website translate I can do. I didn’t see anything about anyone talking about dropping the keel, but some pre-purchase advice they gave was checking for leaks since it’s common with the hatches and from the deck hardware for this boat (I guess since nothing was bedded?) and they mention checking the seal for keel-hull and the bolts. So maybe that means this is a typical issue with this manufacturer?

Also from that reading, these boats say their category is cruiser/racer. It also says “Former French Navigation Category: 2”. Doing some looking into that and looks like it’s rated for 200 miles offshore. How do they come to that I wonder? I’m going to have to do some research on the needed upgrades or improvements to help it become more offshore ready, but do you have any tips you wouldn’t mind sharing?

[Calif.Ted]

Shipyards here are booked solid for 2-3 months because people are buying ANY boat, even those that have been languishing on the hard for years and are now trying to make them seaworthy. Mechanics, riggers, canvas makers, all marine tradesmen at all skill levels fully employed. There's a thread on this forum about a re-fit of a Columbia 29 that started in 2018, no keel issues.
I don't know much about boats that aren't floating, never had one on the hard more than 10 days. You only need to fix everything under the waterline, you can remove and replace almost everything else while it floats.

[DocHolliday]

If you decide to drop the keel (my vote) please come back to this thread and post pictures of the conditions and repairs.

[C420sailor]

Yep. Yards are swamped. We have been trying for months just to get an estimate for a big $$$ repair. They won’t even look at it.

“Sorry, we have more work than we can handle now.”

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by C420sailor

Yep. Yards are swamped. We have been trying for months just to get an estimate for a big $$$ repair. They won’t even look at it.

“Sorry, we have more work than we can handle now.”

You should be thankful for an honest reply! All too often they know that they are overcommitted but take on the job nonetheless. This always leads to tears and boats stuck on the hard with incomplete repairs.

We've seen this so many times...

JIm

[Rob19321]

I haven't done it myself, but I probably wouldn't now after seeing it done.
(Someone else on this thread wisely introduced variables, including you "handi ness")

-----------

I have two friends who recently contracted out and it was around $5,000 each (Canadian)... (One was a Tanzer 31 for reference)

I also have one friend who did it himself (Nonsuch 30 for reference) and I think the costs were less important than the knowledge required.
Bolts
Fibreglass
Gelcoat
Tools (Borrowed)

Process he documented in photos;
Hauled and inserted on jackstands.
Grinded out gelcoat and fibreglass.
(Exposed keel joint to see only keel left as mechanical bond)
REPEAT CYCLES; Loosen keel bolts, raise jackstands, REPEAT.
WARNING: He happened to trust the keel to sit upright... not sure I would. I'd add braces to keel.
Clean both surfaces, preparing for reassembly.
Remove bolts.
(CAVEAT; "Remove bolts" is an easy direction, the effort here is variable and screwing with lock nuts, grinding and cutting is all on the table.)
REPEAT CYCLES; Lower jackstands, introduce and tighten keel bolts.
When tight, start the joint sealing, fibreglass, gelcoat, barrier coat.

---------------
My most structural project was chain-plate knee block replacement and I spent the next season second-guessing if I had even one coat of fibreglass not set well... so for that season of second-guessing... which I'd likely have if I did this work myself... the (probably) $5,000 professional seems worth it

Originally Posted by USA1791

Hey,

Have a question of what to do. One of the sections of the bolt on keel is rusted. The whole backing plate is basically dust, when I touch it, it just crumbles.

It looks like 2 sections of the bolt on keel has been replaced before since the backing plates look different. Does anyone have the best way of removing it? Talking to some people about it and they said I have to be careful so as not to mess up the bolt and make it harder to take out. I’m hoping it’s not rusted all the way through though.

My question is:

1. Should I go ahead and replace all of the bolt sections, or just do the rusted part?
2. From my understanding, there shouldn’t be a reason to removed the keel. I would just need to get the rusted bolts out and replace?
3. I checked the outside of the keel and have noticed some rust around the keel/hull touching.

Attached are some pictures to get a better idea of the issue.

[Bluechart]

Yes, have the keel dropped, bolts replaced, keel painted with a Wurth product (I had a keel with rust in several areas, leading edge, hull/ keel joint, etc. and after 10 years with Wurth, still solid with no rust), and I added 1” G10 backing plates set in 5200, because I always have a tiny bit of water in my flat bilge. Then I cleaned and epoxied my entire bilge area.

[Deep Blue Water]

Originally Posted by Manateeman

I strongly advise you to have someone qualified look at this before any repair, not after.

Completely agree - this is far too important, remove the keel and examine everything