40ft Catamaran Owners Please

[Efam6]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

Pm me if you'd like to get on a maverick.

Yeah definitely! Actually after my last post found out that the boat show in Ft Lauderdale in Oct/Nov is mainly power boats. We already have that trip planned but are now trying to squeeze in the Annapolis show before that.

I'll take you up on that offer

[Gpolar]

I just saw the helia 44. I like the feature that next to the helm there is a lot of seating area. And the boom is higher. Seems a lot of room left. Is it same on other 44 foot cats.

[djtopper]

Originally Posted by Gpolar

I just saw the helia 44. I like the feature that next to the helm there is a lot of seating area. And the boom is higher. Seems a lot of room left. Is it same on other 44 foot cats.

The Helia is a new model. My wife loves it. Its focus seems to be on high-end, contemporary, architectural design. The salon and cockpit are very comfortable and have an extremely spacious feel thanks to the wide and almost seamless opening between the two.

The design of the 44 ft FPs seems to have been creeping in this direction for a while. If you compare the Helia to the Orana you can see a clear evolution IMHO. I've heard some say that the Helia is basically a revamped Orana. The Orana, however, didn't have the small "sun deck" area to the immediate left of the cockpit though. It only has the elevated cockpit much like some other FP models (eg., Lipari).

Also, the Galathea 65 (discontinued) has what you might consider the "full version" of what they put on top of the Helia 44.

The Lagoon 440 takes a bit of a different approach with the fly bridge. Some complain it takes the skipper "out of the conversation" in the cockpit. But if you like a high seated helm with some extra seating, go have a look at one. I actually thought it was quite nice. I think the 450s have some "sun deck" area near the helm. If not, then it was the 500s.

NB: the new FP Sayna 57 is a bit more like the Lagoons with a full fly bridge up top.

Leopards, Voyages and the like have a design that seems to have evolved over time from a different perspective and focus. From what I've read and seen, they're more geared towards open water sailing, speed, and wind-propulsion efficiency. But you don't have a seating / sun deck area on top of the bimini like the FPs / Lagoons. I would go out on a limb to say that the logic there is that your beautiful wife / partner wont be using it much in a storm or heavy seas.

I can't speak to other models as I haven't seen or been on them.

[D&D]

Originally Posted by djtopper

The Helia is a new model. My wife loves it. Its focus seems to be on high-end, contemporary, architectural design. The salon and cockpit are very comfortable and have an extremely spacious feel thanks to the wide and almost seamless opening between the two.

The design of the 44 ft FPs seems to have been creeping in this direction for a while. If you compare the Helia to the Orana you can see a clear evolution IMHO. I've heard some say that the Helia is basically a revamped Orana. The Orana, however, didn't have the small "sun deck" area to the immediate left of the cockpit though. It only has the elevated cockpit much like some other FP models (eg., Lipari).

Also, the Galathea 65 (discontinued) has what you might consider the "full version" of what they put on top of the Helia 44.

The Lagoon 440 takes a bit of a different approach with the fly bridge. Some complain it takes the skipper "out of the conversation" in the cockpit. But if you like a high seated helm with some extra seating, go have a look at one. I actually thought it was quite nice. I think the 450s have some "sun deck" area near the helm. If not, then it was the 500s.

NB: the new FP Sayna 57 is a bit more like the Lagoons with a full fly bridge up top.

Leopards, Voyages and the like have a design that seems to have evolved over time from a different perspective and focus. From what I've read and seen, they're more geared towards open water sailing, speed, and wind-propulsion efficiency. But you don't have a seating / sun deck area on top of the bimini like the FPs / Lagoons. I would go out on a limb to say that the logic there is that your beautiful wife / partner wont be using it much in a storm or heavy seas.

I can't speak to other models as I haven't seen or been on them.

Excellent post djtopper. Very informative and very responsive to Gpolar.

The only thing we might add is that "some extra seating" may be a bit of an understatement as applied to the Lagoon 440 flybridge. We can seat 8 up there...and that goes a long way to answering the 'out of the conversation' concern, especially as the view up there is superb, far better than at cockpit level. One can also lie completely flat on the starboard side seat, great for star-gazing on night watch, or just star-gazing anytime! The L440 bridge seating is (as far as we know anyway?) the largest of any of them.

[cwjohm]

My partner also loves the Helia, but when I compare the polar diagrams of the Helia vs the Orana from 50-180 the Orana is a good knot faster. This is not surprising given the Orana is a ton lighter with much the same sail area.

This is of course a matter of great debate between us - 1 knot may not seem much but it is around 15% of boat speed. I am not sure I want to sacrifice that in return for just a little more comfort. My partner would of course disagree .

[Factor]

Just for accuracy, there are no 44 foot FPs. The Helia is 43 foot, similarly the Lipari 41 is 39 foot and as an aside the leopard 44 is 42 foot. Not a big deal, but its nice to be accurate. The seawind 1250 is actually 12.47 and the 1160 is 11.61 and the 1000XL2 is actually 10.85

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by Factor

Just for accuracy, there are no 44 foot FPs. The Helia is 43 foot, similarly the Lipari 41 is 39 foot and as an aside the leopard 44 is 42 foot. Not a big deal, but its nice to be accurate. The seawind 1250 is actually 12.47 and the 1160 is 11.61 and the 1000XL2 is actually 10.85

What is a Antares 44i?

[Dreaming Yachtsman]

Fresh Salt,
I composed this reply before reaching your third iteration of questions and don't feel like rewriting my reply. Hope this information helps you out, even though it sounds like you won't be looking too hard at Fountaine Pajots. The only other cruising cat I have sailed is a FP Athena 38 for a 10 day charter in 2003 so my comparison numbers (x/10) don't mean much.

These answers refer to our 2003 FP Belize 43 Maestro version, hull number 110.
1. True Solo Sail Ability - (8/10) Not a problem: I sailed the boat myself most of the time from December 2011 to May 2012, including anchoring, grabbing mooring buoys, and entering marinas.

2. Heavy Weather Safety / Survivability / Comfort - (7/10) Owner's manual states the boat is designed to withstand 60 knot winds. We have been in 30+ with gusts to 40, seas to 12 feet, and not had a problem. The "crash zone" at the bottom of the bows gives me a warm fuzzy feeling.

3. Carrying Capacity - 3400 kg per manufacturer's label plate under the helm. We have more clothes than we ever will use, plenty of storage space for wife's kitchen gadgets, and have close to 6 cubic feet of food in the freezer. Of course the wife always complains there is not enough storage space but she still wants to have her Kitchen Aide mixer.

3. General Build Quality / Durability - (9/10) Excellent. One worker at a fiberglass shop noted the sturdy construction as he was grinding out a delamination being repaired as warrantee work. Main cleats did not have backing plates coming from the factory.

4. Ease of Maintenance - (8/10) Most items are not bad. However, false overheads need to be removed to access nuts on main cleats. Boat needs to be hauled out to change saildrive oil.

5. Performance Both Under Sail and while Motoring - (7/10) Sails very well except when beating to windward. Tacking angle is about 110 degrees, can sail 45 degrees off wind but usually experience 8-10 degrees slip. Motoring is boring so I don't do that.

6. Natural Ventilation / general livability - (9/10)Great ventilation, especially when anchored in waters calm enough to open the escape hatches and let the wind blow through the cabins. Obviously when underway, side ports must be closed so the hulls get a bit stuffy. Also if spray is coming over the bow, the main saloon hatches must be closed to keep the saloon dry, making the interior quite toasty. At anchor, though, the boat is usually quite comfortable, even without air conditioning.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Therapy

What is a Antares 44i?

Pretty sure its 44

[cwjohm]

Andrew

For the avoidance of all doubt I equate

SW 1160 - FP Lipari
SW 1250 - FP Helia

I dont really care about the exact dimensions.

Others can answer for Lagoon and Leopard as I am not a fan.

It would be good to get a polar diagram for the Seawinds but all of the sales guys looked at me blankly (your were not there) when I asked for this.

I would imagine this may be of interest to those in the forum.

Chris

[ausaviator]

SW 1160 - FP Lipari
SW 1250 - FP Helia

I see you are in the market for a new cat. Have you been on board an done a direct comparison?

I'm thinking more like:

SW 1160 - FP Athena
SW 1250 - FP Lavezzi

If you don't agree with that, no worries, it's hard to make an exact comparison, however the Orana and Helia are not comparable to the Seawind range. I've spent a couple of weeks on an Orana and it doesn't compare to any of the SW range in terms of size and liveability. (Quality excluded from this comparison)

[cwjohm]

Yes, I have.

The Athena and Lavezzi are not offered as new boats any more so the comparison is not valid.

If I want to buy a new boat then the comparisons I made are correct. Of course when you consider second hand boats the options become more complex.

I was merely responding to Andrew's comments about length and making the length comparisons between the two brands.

You are correct of course in that they are quite different boats as is a Lagoon to an FP to a Leopard to a Seawind.

Obviously SW and FP do not compare in size and livability, but no doubt SW owners would say that the SW sails better. It is hard to judge this as there is no empirical data. It is all anecdotal.

[ausaviator]

I understand that they are no longer available however I can't see that you can simply compare the two and say that they are equivalent when they aren't.

It's like saying that SW 1000 is like an Athena 38 because the FP Tobago is no longer manufactured!

[cwjohm]

Let me try to explain in simple English.

I compared boats of a similar length. I did this because Andrew (Factor) is at pains to point out that other brands misrepresent the length of their boat. This is a true statement but I think most of us understand this.

At no point did I say that any boats are equivalent. In fact I stated exactly the converse of that.

From my perspective I started wanting a boat of length 38-45 ft. I do not want a 35 foot boat and I dont want a 60 foot boat so length is the first determinator. The reasons for this determination of length are many and varied and dealt with in many other threads.


As I state for the third time this comparison is made on length and nothing else, so I started at 38 foot boats and worked my way up until I reach the 45 foot mark and I examine all crteria.

Thus far on a whole lot of criteria it is clear I need a boat of length 41-45 feet, this only including (in new boats) the following boats of interest to me

Outremer 45S 2 years away and bloody expensive
Catana 42 Rejected in 1 minute by my partner
Helia 44
Seawind 1150

Other brands rejected in less than 30 seconds by my partner.

It is clear you have a bias against Seawind so I understand you would opt for the Helia, but there is the small matter of $100K difference in price and the fact (as you point out) they are very different boats.

There is also the complexity of second hand boats. The boats you mention have a history of osmosis so I wont touch them at any price. Maybe late models i.e. later than 2011.

Hopefully this clarifies.

[aclmck]

Hi Chris,

We have just gone through the same type of evaluation and at the end it came down to a few things .
How easy it was to get in and out of beds along with making them.
Saftey to access all parts of the boat including the helm.
Access to motors
ease of use of all systems
Room to install a lot of solar(nearly impossible on some models)

For us the Helia came out on top also had more storage than we thought we needed.