The criteria of "blue"

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

Seriously - there IS an evaluation system for offshore yachts. It actually exists, but no one seems to be aware of it. Until yesterday I had never heard of it, so please excuse any errors below as I'm certainly no expert.

For all yachts sold in Europe (possibly applies to North America also) the manufacturer is required to meet ISO 12217 (stability) and ISO 12215 (structural strength); Category A is Offshore. But not only must they meet those standards, they must also publish certain critical stability information -
. AVS (Angle of Vanishing Stability) must exceed 130 degrees for offshore (less an allowance for heavier displacement, that brings most minima down to around 110 degrees).
. STIX (STability IndeX), a number from 0 to 100 that takes account of many different features - displacement, beam, downflooding angle, GZ curve, etc, etc, etc, must exceed 35 for offshore.

And those numbers are available on line for simple comparison of all offshore monohulls manufactured since 2010 (and many more besides). For example, the renowned Vancouver series of Canadian yachts have AVS numbers up around 170!!!!! And they're certainly not submarines!

Thanks Paul for starting this thread - I for one find these numbers incredibly useful in evaluating different yacht designs. I'm just astonished they are not more widely publicized - but then why would you publish the fact that your yacht will turn turtle if the mast tip ever touches the water?

Hi NevisDog. Have you got a link to this database then? I would like to see who is making the prettiest curves..

[NevisDog]

Originally Posted by paulanthony

Hi NevisDog. Have you got a link to this database then?...

The spreadsheet I downloaded is from "RYA stability list for ballasted monohulls" - sorry don't know how to post the link. Lists many hundreds of yachts. It's a clumsy spreadsheet, difficult to see the important info on screen all at once without modifying it, so if anyone has a better source I'd be glad to hear of it.

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by cpa

I have become tired of the blue water boat designation. It once meant one thing and then it turned into something else (many times), then the marketing companies started using it. To be honest, I don't really know if it ever really meant anything worthwhile, but it does seem that the definition has definitely evolved over the years. It does sound nice.


In my opinion, the blue water boat designation should describe boats that are built with the intention of sailing offshore and in areas far from assistance, designs that allow for safe operation in even the worst conditions. While most any boat can make a blue water passage, the designation should go to boats that are built with that intended purpose. But, since I can not designate a definition for everyone to use based on my own opinion, I keep is simple. To me there are boats of varying build quality, difference of design, and levels of comfort. It is up to the individual buyer to determine what configuration best suits their intended purpose.

Well put!

This is close to my own view.

I have considered the term "Blue Water Boat" from many angles and much of what I think is based on the key point or concern of original "intended purpose of the design."

EDIT: I wrote something else here a few minutes ago, and upon reflection realized that a single sentence may not best explain a complex situation or POV. My POV is complex as I recognize that a wide variety of boats and sailors have gone sailing in Blue Water. Best to be careful about making blanket statements regarding the topic.


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[Mike R]

Question.... If the crap hit the fan... What would you rather be on, A Benneteau 42 or a Mason 43?

Mike
Arc En Ciel II


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Thank you ever so much for your kind words.

'Charter' in the TdF context means skippered ( and often crewed ) charter.... you know... the big blue water expedition boats that operate from Pto Williams down to the Peninsula..

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

As for chartered, there seem to be several definitions running around. People (in the bahamas) discuss "chartering" a boat as in "renting" one, they get to drive it around (if they have the correct license). Others "charter" a boat as in hire the boat and captain. In any event, those boats seem (from the comments here, and in the coastal US waters) to be big, comfortable, shiny boats designed specifically to make folks comfortable and make sure they come back next year. Folks that die because the boat sinks ain't coming back anyway so there doesn't seem to be a lot of concern there. And the water and boating season has pretty much no need for blue water boats.

And finally, since I sit in NC (North Carolina, USA) some many thousand miles away from wherever it is you are discussing, I haven't a clue how things work down there?

In my context, a "charter" is the very last boat I would look at. Except perhaps the very first boat I would look at down your way.

Things may be different down your way. At least people die in these accidents (in your local) on the best boats possible eh? Around here we will go out in a bathub with a keel glued on. And (apparently) make it home just fine. Mostly because we have such fine skippers I assume.

I apologize if I insulted you. You just happened to be the 497th response with a post that did not seem to discuss anything about the thread title.

I fully intend to be visiting your part of the world in a few years. Perhaps I can buy you a beer to make up for bent feelings.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by NevisDog

The spreadsheet I downloaded is from "RYA stability list for ballasted monohulls" - sorry don't know how to post the link. Lists many hundreds of yachts. It's a clumsy spreadsheet, difficult to see the important info on screen all at once without modifying it, so if anyone has a better source I'd be glad to hear of it.

That RYA crew are so lazy - they could have given us a nice web view. I will have to do some work now when I really just wanted to..

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

Thank you ever so much for your kind words.

'Charter' in the TdF context means skippered ( and often crewed ) charter.... you know... the big blue water expedition boats that operate from Pto Williams down to the Peninsula..

I'm surprised you didn't know that.

With great respect for you and what you have experienced, I get your point and got it when you posted it above in response to the remarks by another.

But I am not surprised that some might not, especially those new to sailing or with limited knowledge of sailing or limited experience. TdF is remote after all.

For those who are unfamiliar with the charter boat operations in Tierra del Fuego area, here is a link to one of the most famous skippers and his small fleet of noteworthy boats. One of this forum's members was actually a member of the crew of one of these boats and skippered it too.

The boat's design is detailed on the site linked below. It is an interesting "Expedition Boat" and one is named "Pelagic Australis." The owner/skipper is Skip Novak, also famous for several reasons.

Skip Novak's Pelagic Expeditions Antarctica, Greenland, South Georgia, Cape Horn, Southern Ocean -- charter sailing yacht Pelagic, photographs, articles

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Mike R

Question.... If the crap hit the fan... What would you rather be on, A Benneteau 42 or a Mason 43?

Mike
Arc En Ciel II


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

I'll bite.

I would rather be on the boat that has the "best skipper," that is the one who has experience, proven good judgement, a cool head, and great sea sense and better than average seamanship AND leadership skills during a challenging event.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by jwcolby54

Perhaps I can buy you a beer to make up for bent feelings.

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I'll bite.

I would rather be on the boat that has the "best skipper," that is the one who has experience, proven good judgement, a cool head, and great sea sense and better than average seamanship AND leadership skills during a challenging event.

ROTFL. Troublemaker!!!

[jwcolby54]

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

BTW you have a very beautiful boat. I filter to only those available in north America and non of that entire brand come up. Once I allowed all the world suddenly I can see it.

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I sincerely appreciate your comment. Why not post the type and size or a photo of the boat (the rare breed) you sail too?

You've seen the boat befor Steady, "Fast Cruiser" is our newest addition, My grandson, Out of School and cruising with us part time..

[Randyonr3]

Originally Posted by Mike R

Question.... If the crap hit the fan... What would you rather be on, A Benneteau 42 or a Mason 43?

Mike
Arc En Ciel II


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

For myself Mike, I'd rather be on the FIRST 42 everytime.. if you're going to argue the points of the two boats, I'm Game, But befor you do, make sure you know which Beneteau you're talking about..

[Steadman Uhlich]

Originally Posted by Randyonr3

You've seen the boat befor Steady, "Fast Cruiser" is our newest addition, My grandson, Out of School and cruising with us part time..

Sorry, I did not recognize or remember the name "Fast Cruiser" and saw the member "Fast Cruiser" had recently joined the forum, so was encouraging some more input.

I do remember some years ago when I saw my first Beneteau in SF Bay, and I thought:
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I do have eclectic tastes though. I also like salty wood Pilot Cutters and "built like a water tank" aluminum expedition yachts too.

To me, any boat that sails is better than any boat sitting on the hard or on the dock.

[paulanthony]

Originally Posted by Steady Hand

I do remember some years ago when I saw my first Beneteau in SF Bay, and I thought:
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. [/B]

I kind of have a soft spot for the bene sense 55. I know, I know but... On the social front looks like a fun happy boat.

Maybe in reality for 95% of the time that is all that is needed. For that ocean crossing could just get a couple of cunnard tickets.