Can anyone solve the mystery

[OneBoatman]

Tough thread to follow. Really a bilge pump plumbed to a thru hull which includes a vented loop. I must say I don't think I've ever seen a boat commissioned that way. There-in lies the mystery. Checking on a boat over the winter either in the water or on the hard is more than many folks do, but of course it doesn't count if the check is done by someone sitting on their porch with binoculars.

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by wyb2

Just to clarify, it wouldn’t have to overflow into the cabin. It’s just an issue of weight, how many extra pounds does it take to push that through-hull down to the waterline. The fresh water stays in the cockpit, the salt water starts flowing in down below via the through-hull.

Got it. This could happen if the anti backflow valve or check valve (which is what my sailor friend believes the boat has) failed in some way. I suppose the freezing temps could have jammed it up. With the wind at 37 with gusts to 47, it could have been the perfect storm event. Thanks so much. I knew the explanations would be "unlikely" but there are no "likely" explanations that fit the facts.

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by Lee Jerry

The 1500 gph is under "ideal" conditions. Real life is probably somewhat less. So maybe a little less water.




How close was this leak to the wet starboard, forward ceiling spot?




The 12" is how much water falls in any particular area (whatever reference area you want - 1 sq in, or 1 sg ft, or whatever) at the measurement location, typically an airport or outside the TV station studio. Other locations could receive a significantly different amount (more or less).

The various parts of the boat could be collecting a lot more water than what falls "on the ground." These could include the deck, the mast, the boom/mainsail and maybe others. So if that gets funneled to the leak...

The wet ceiling was directly under and to starboard of the leak. Most water damage was to starboard, fore and aft.

Your statement about how water is collected is exactly why I'm okay with doubling the amount of rain in the specific area in question. But the leak is also determined by surface area. I realize water can funnel toward the leak, but I don't believe this leak had much water funneled to it.

I wish I knew which direction the wind was blowing. It's possible the wind caused the list, dipping the through-hull low in the water and allowing passage of water from the outside to the inside. (only if the check valve froze or failed in some way and the bilge pump froze or failed in some way)

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

Although there is some disagreement about just how many drops in a gallon, I'm not actually surprised at the Ins co's stance against payment. One thing perhaps against Barb in this mystery is that according to her timeline it seems that the boat was "wintered in water" and wasn't actually boarded for over 4 months. Probably not a good idea, if correct. I've witnessed that stuffing box drip rates can be quite different with changes in temperature. If there was in fact fresh water intrusion contributing down the mast or from other deck leakage that is a difficult thing to factor in and there is always at least some. I also think it's a leap to conclude the bilge pump siezed up from continuous duty simply because it would take a pretty steady leak to make that happen. Secondly, any steady leak doesn't just go away. Thirdly, some pumps have a thermal overload and will start again once they cool down. If there was debris in the bilge that caused the bilge pump to lock up that could result in water accumulating over time as would at some point rise above the cabin sole. This cost is something she must bare and I dare say be somewhat relieved if all the boat needs to be back in action is new bilge pumps, some scrubbing to remove mildew, and a new cabin sole.

Unfortunately, the boat had electric propulsion and a 48v lithium battery bank to power the motor. After a good cleaning and a new bilge pump and sole, a person would be able to use the boat, for sure. But the value of the boat dropped to next to nothing due to the water damage, amount of cleaning to be done, replacement of equipment and woodwork damaged or stained badly. I wasn't up for another rebuild. To me, it was a catastrophic loss with an unknown cause. The insurance company's explanation for denying my claim doesn't fly. But they aren't listening to other possible scenarios.

Using hindsight, yes, I would have had someone board the boat and check the bilge pump periodically? Using hindsight, I might have figured out a way and gone to the expense to have a backup bilge pump in that cramped space called the bilge. I might have placed a camera on board or water sensors. Instead I opted to do what worked the year before and have someone check on it from the dock and take photos to send to me for verification that everything was okay. I don't think an insurance company is supposed to punish our lack of hindsight. Mother Nature has the final word (or, worse yet, a vandal). If an insurance company protects you when you accidentally go aground or hit another boat, why wouldn't they protect me from an unknown cause. Instead they are hanging their hat on a cause that isn't possible without further explanation--an explanation they and I don't have.

[OneBoatman]

Possible, I suppose, but unlikely unless the thru hull valves which served your cockpit drains were completely blocked with debris or perhps you closed them before you left the boat. Normally these are left full time open and they are below the waterline. As you've already stated the boat was "checked weekly" for whatever that is worth. The boat would present as pooped, and your "checker" would most certainly have noticed the stern being unusually low and the bow un-naturally high. Two, even if that happened, this would mean that the total amount of rainwater which had nowhere to go was enough to fill your cockpit to the lip of the companionway, and then fill the entire bilge and cover the cabin sole. I would check the weather service to see if there were any incidents of torrential rain say maybe 12-15 inches plus in combination with extended freezing conditions in any given week during storage. Also ice typically forms from the top down, not the bottom up. I would do this anyway just to help convince myself self that "the help" either a) completely let me down or b) actually checked on my boat.

[wyb2]

Not sure if you are talking about the flooded cockpit theory I posted above, but if so:

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

Possible, I suppose, but unlikely unless the thru hull valves which served your cockpit drains were completely blocked with debris or perhps you closed them before you left the boat. Normally these are left full time open and they are below the waterline.

I was thinking the drains froze, blocking them completely. This seems more likely if there are any elbows or near-horizontal runs in the drain routing. Not sure the layout on this boat. I think it’s a center cockpit, so there is likely some run length.

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

As you've already stated the boat was "checked weekly" for whatever that is worth. The boat would present as pooped, and your "checker" would most certainly have noticed the stern being unusually low and the bow un-naturally high.

OP said that the boat was observed to be sitting lower with a list starting around the time of the freezing temps.

Originally Posted by OneBoatman

Two, even if that happened, this would mean that the total amount of rainwater which had nowhere to go was enough to fill your cockpit to the lip of the companionway, and then fill the entire bilge and cover the cabin sole.

If there is a bilge pump exit near the waterline (bad design in my opinion, but seems to be the case). Then the water in the cockpit doesn’t have to get anywhere else. It simply weighs the stern of the boat down enough to get the pump discharge through-hull sitting low enough to start taking in water.

A functioning vented loop would prevent this. A functioning anti-backflow valve would prevent this.

A non-vented loop would prevent this until the bilge pump ran, completing the siphon. But for the siphon to continue the through-hull would need to be 100% underwater and stay there, any wave action could break the siphon.

[Bullshooter]

Originally Posted by BarbW

Dec. 2022-April 2023
someone checked boat weekly and after significant storms
~weekly photos sent to me; no obvious problems detected


7. photos suggest boat dropped lower in water and began to list slightly to starboard sometime between Dec. 22, 2022 and Dec. 30, 2022. A clearer photo on Jan. 19th, 2023 confirms the drop and list.

This appears to be problematic. If someone checked the boat weekly, why were you not informed that the boat was lower in the water and listing slightly?

And if the bilge pump did not have a vented loop, with its discharge thru hull near the waterline, that would be an improper installation or repair. That would suggest the most likely cause, in my opinion.

[Cynara]

And it is not pumping the max at 4+ feet

[BarbW]

Thank you all for your posts. You are very patient with me.

I've never closed the cockpit through-hull valves. But since the boat is a center cockpit design, I wouldn't expect it to list toward the stern or bow even if it did take on water in the cockpit. Historical data shows there wasn't much rain before, during or after the freeze. Even if there was more rain at the boat's location, it has a full canvas enclosure. Two of the screens could have let some rain in, but not that much, I don't believe.

My checker wasn't the only person to not notice the boat listing or sinking. I didn't notice it in the photos she sent until after the mishap and I started to investigate the cause. You can see for yourself (below), that it wasn't easy to notice the problem. I'm sorry if you can't enlarge the photos and see the boat clearly. But with photo enlargement, I can see that the boat was okay on Dec. 22 (first two photos). The Dec. 30 and Jan. 5 photos (third and fourth photos below) show that the boat is listing to starboard and lower in the water. I realize those photos are a bit dark, so I included the Jan. 19th photos (the last two) to show more clearly how the boat was sitting lower in the water and listing to starboard.

This is my latest (and possibly final) explanation for the mishap:

As you can see, the boat has a great deal of windage. I think the facts suggest the wind (38 mph with gusts to 55 on Dec. 23rd) pushed the starboard side low enough in the water to cause a temporary backflow of water through either or both the electric bilge discharge through-hull and/or the manual bilge discharge through-hull, which is located just above the electric bilge pump discharge through-hull. While a through-hull was allowing water to intrude, the bilge pump tried to pump it back out. At some point it lost the fight. I believe this explanation makes sense if there were no anti backflow or siphon valves to stop the water from coming in OR at least one of the valves leaked or failed. After the wind died down, the boat righted itself and no one was the wiser.

When I got to the boat, the manual bilge pump discharge through-hull was riding right at the water line. The electric bilge pump discharge through-hull was below the water. This leads me to believe the manual bilge pump through-hull was the culprit. If it had been a failure of the electric bilge pump anti backflow valve, I think the boat would have continued to sink even when righted. Also, I know the electric bilge pump system was working when I left the boat. As you'd expect, I hadn't used the manual system for a much longer time.

Does this explanation make sense?

By the way, the Tiara people can not guarantee (due to not having the design drawings any longer) that there are anti backflow or anti siphon valves in the lines. Since the boat was well designed, I tend to believe there are such valves, especially since the discharge through-hulls were so close to the water line and sometimes submerged due to heeling or weather.

Hindsight is 20-20. Obviously, I would have done things differently. But, I don't think most reasonable people would have thought to board the boat during this time period. It was a period of extreme winter weather and the boat looked "just fine."

[Lee Jerry]

Originally Posted by BarbW

This is my latest (and possibly final) explanation for the mishap:

As you can see, the boat has a great deal of windage. I think the facts suggest the wind (38 mph with gusts to 55 on Dec. 23rd) pushed the starboard side low enough in the water to cause a temporary backflow of water through either or both the electric bilge discharge through-hull and/or the manual bilge discharge through-hull, which is located just above the electric bilge pump discharge through-hull. While a through-hull was allowing water to intrude, the bilge pump tried to pump it back out. At some point it lost the fight. I believe this explanation makes sense if there were no anti backflow or siphon valves to stop the water from coming in OR at least one of the valves leaked or failed. After the wind died down, the boat righted itself and no one was the wiser.

When I got to the boat, the manual bilge pump discharge through-hull was riding right at the water line. The electric bilge pump discharge through-hull was below the water. This leads me to believe the manual bilge pump through-hull was the culprit. If it had been a failure of the electric bilge pump anti backflow valve, I think the boat would have continued to sink even when righted. Also, I know the electric bilge pump system was working when I left the boat. As you'd expect, I hadn't used the manual system for a much longer time.

Does this explanation make sense?

I think it sounds possible, but maybe not likely. (But I haven't seen the pump and piping arrangement.)

However, the problem is that if this were the accepted explanation, it does not help your case with the insurance company. Their reply would be that you left the water sit in the boat for 3+ months allowing the water to do more damage, whereas is if you had visited / used the boat within the following couple of weeks you would have discovered the issue and remedied it sooner with much less damage to the boat. I'm sorry to say, but I don't think you are in a strong position w.r.t. your claim. JMHO.


N.B. The current best practice for the discharge side of a bilge pump is to install a vented loop and NO check valve. They tend to break or clog (first and frequently) which then prevents the bilge pump from operating properly, either not at all or at greatly reduced flow due to the obstruction.

[Lodesman]

Did you use Damp-rid or some other chemical dessicant during the boat's storage?

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by BarbW

The wet ceiling was directly under and to starboard of the leak. Most water damage was to starboard, fore and aft.

Your statement about how water is collected is exactly why I'm okay with doubling the amount of rain in the specific area in question. But the leak is also determined by surface area. I realize water can funnel toward the leak, but I don't believe this leak had much water funneled to it.

I wish I knew which direction the wind was blowing. It's possible the wind caused the list, dipping the through-hull low in the water and allowing passage of water from the outside to the inside. (only if the check valve froze or failed in some way and the bilge pump froze or failed in some way)

I think you are on the right track here.

IN my location in winter water levels can be insanely low during low tide with some wind and current conditions.

Even to the point of completely evacuating water from my slip.

This would leave your boat leaning with the side with the sink below the incoming waterline.

Any of a number of things could happen at that point. Bad through hull, siphon, or simply waves over the side.

Bilge pumps would be inoperative as they are no longer the lowest point.

After wind subsides, water washed in by waves drains to the bilge, and your boat refloats itself once tide levels return to normal, you are just left with a mystery, and the damage.

[BarbW]

Yes to Lodesman. The boat had two Damp-rid buckets and at least a couple of those hanging Damp-rid thingies strategically placed in it. Ironic.

to capn_billi: That's a really good suggestion (to consider the depth of the water and the possibility of the boat tipping due to grounding in a very low tide); but, I don't think that is possible in this particular slip. The boat has a 5 ft. draft and was in about 15-18 feet of water with a tidal change of about 4 ft.

In response to Lee Jerry--
With regard to my insurance claim, I agree with you. I think Progressive will say exactly what you say they will say. Actually, they already have said it. They don't cover “long term” damage due to mold and mildew.

At this point, my argument is (1) the mishap wasn't due to a slow leak over time, as they have stated, (2) if the scenario I have come up with is the most reasonable, it was an event or relatively quick series of events which did quite a bit of damage in the short run, which they are not compensating me for, and, for what it's worth, (3) they've been obstinate and unreasonable throughout the process.

There’s a basic ethical argument. Progressive quickly drew a conclusion that benefitted them at a time when I was obviously at a great loss due to unexpected circumstances. They didn’t respond to further information that contradicted their explanation for the loss. The most common response from people who hear this story is, "Then why do we have insurance?" Good question.

I feel I was a conscientious boat owner. I found the best insurance I could find for the boat, because, like many boat owners, I knew I couldn't afford a total loss or a major mishap. A major mishap happened and my insurance wasn't there for me. Using hindsight, there are things I could have done differently. But, isn’t that the case when we damage our boats due to running aground, sailing through a storm, or colliding with another boat? Are we really protected from major mishap or not? Progressive says, “our people and technology will support you every step of the way” and “we've built our business around understanding what you need and what's important for you to protect.” There’s an inconsistency here, or hypocrisy, on a very basic level.

At the very least, I'd like Progressive to compensate me for the damages caused by water intruding into my boat. I understand the "I wasn't there to pump it out" argument. But where does it say I needed to be there, especially when it appeared “all was well”? On what day would I have had to be back on the boat before the wood, etc. was stained by mold and mildew? One week? Two weeks? What is reasonable to ask in the "off season?” My policy doesn’t spell that out. I guess Progressive decides.

This entire experience has been pretty horrible. Losing my boat was a horrible experience, emotionally and financially. But dealing with the insurance company has compounded the disaster, not abated it.

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by capn_billl

I think you are on the right track here.

IN my location in winter water levels can be insanely low during low tide with some wind and current conditions.

Even to the point of completely evacuating water from my slip.

This would leave your boat leaning with the side with the sink below the incoming waterline.

Any of a number of things could happen at that point. Bad through hull, siphon, or simply waves over the side.

Bilge pumps would be inoperative as they are no longer the lowest point.

After wind subsides, water washed in by waves drains to the bilge, and your boat refloats itself once tide levels return to normal, you are just left with a mystery, and the damage.

Interesting point! This is a factor I didn’t think of and haven’t seen brought up.

Whatever happened seems to have happened around the time frame of this weather event. I was thinking about the freezing temps element, BarbW is thinking about the wind-on-boat element, but what about the wind-on-water element?

How much water sits under the keel in that spot at low tide? Was the wind on shore, which would probably increase the water level in the harbor, or off, which could decrease it? A 1 or 2 ft decrease in water level in a bay or harbor does not seem implausible for ~40 knt steady winds. The water level dropping to even 6 inches less than your draft could cause the boat to rest at a significant angle.

[BarbW]

Originally Posted by wyb2

Interesting point! This is a factor I didn’t think of and haven’t seen brought up.

Whatever happened seems to have happened around the time frame of this weather event. I was thinking about the freezing temps element, BarbW is thinking about the wind-on-boat element, but what about the wind-on-water element?

How much water sits under the keel in that spot at low tide? Was the wind on shore, which would probably increase the water level in the harbor, or off, which could decrease it? A 1 or 2 ft decrease in water level in a bay or harbor does not seem implausible for ~40 knt steady winds. The water level dropping to even 6 inches less than your draft could cause the boat to rest at a significant angle.

Yep. Not really the case here, but very good point brought up by capn_billl.