40 year old sailboat with good survey, vs 20 year old sailboat with good survey?

[lestersails]

Originally Posted by thomm225

The interior is fine for a programmer since they mainly care about a good/working computer, keyboard, and maybe a mouse.

The interior is also fine for a cruiser that actually sails his boat rather than hanging out at a marina.

Someone should really write a book on this guy's near circumnavigation on this old Bristol 27.

The yellow box on the floor in one of the pictures looks like a Canakit Raspberry Pi. I got the idea from this guy to build my own chart plotter with a Raspberry Pi 4 that also displays AIS on my 19" HDTV on my Bristol 27.

I bought two of the Raspberry Pi 4's like in the link below. The 4 tells you it has 4 GB of Ram. They now have RPi 8's with 8 GB Ram.

They have a Linux OS so are a bit harder to use than your normal computers.

https://www.canakit.com/raspberry-pi...minum-kit.html

For those interested, you can load the OpenPlotter software onto your system

https://openmarine.net/openplotter

Sean's pypilot comes with the OpenPlotter software it appears.

https://openplotter.readthedocs.io/e...wnloading.html

??? I just don't get it. It looks like he devoted more care to the mounting of the bejeweled horseshoe (upper left of the lower picture) than to the mounting of the electronics. This jumble of equipment and wires cannot be stable or safe. Yes, I know, he sailed far. But bad practice and good luck is not as good as good practice and good luck.
This looks like a disaster waiting to happen.

[Prairie Chicken]

Wrong assumption. Without having read pages of other answers, I'll say this. The quality of production boats dropped off dramatically around the turn of the century. Before that, most were strongly built and, if well cared for, are good boats indeed. These boats were built when yachting was a rich mans sport; the hoi polloi could not afford yachts. About 2000, Bavaria started producing cheaply produced sailing yachts that the common folk could afford--and they sold lots. So much so that other mass producers such as Beneteau had to lower their standards and prices to compete. Today's boats are cheap by comparison. So, an older, well cared for boat may well be better than a newer, not as well cared for boat.

One other consideration is design, and not just of the hull but also the interior spaces. Things like door and drawer openers have changed over the years to become safer, and cheaper.

Look at many boat designs. You'll find features that you consistently like, and those you don't. This will help you narrow down your choices.

Good luck and good sailing.

[john manning]

The question asked is one far more complex than you realise. I could write an answer many pages long. So I will shortcut a reply.

Fiberglass is your best option. Choose epoxy resin glass over the rest. The best fiberglass hulls made 20 years ago were made in Scandanavia. The best fiberglass hulls made 40 years ago were made in the USA. That opinion comes from working on yachts from all over the world.

Interior design did not change much between 1980 and 2000. More recent designs focus on space and comfort. The same is true of hull design. Not much change in the age group you are looking at but significant changes to hull shapes more recently. Modern european yachts need careful inspection.

NZ and Australian boats are usually reliable, (says the New Zealander).

[Lazerbrains]

Originally Posted by john manning

Fiberglass is your best option. Choose epoxy resin glass over the rest.

Who made/makes hulls using epoxy instead of vinylester? I've never heard of that.....

[john manning]

Originally Posted by Lazerbrains

Who made/makes hulls using epoxy instead of vinylester? I've never heard of that.....

Vinylester resin is a modified epoxy resin. It was invented in the late 1960's but did not become commonly used until after the 1970's. (At least that is the case where I live.)

Prior to the mid 1970's epoxy resin was recommended over polyester for marine applications because is was stronger and more moisture resistant. However epoxy did not work well with chopped strand mat, so that and its expense meant very high production costs. Consequently when you find a 1970's epoxy resin glass boat then it will be a hand laid build, probably with woven cloth and usually very high quality.

[Jim Cate]

Consequently when you find a 1970's epoxy resin glass boat then it will be a hand laid build, probably with woven cloth and usually very high quality.

could you please name some of the firms who built such boats? I'm not aware of any.

Jim

[john manning]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

could you please name some of the firms who built such boats? I'm not aware of any.

Jim

Which bit of "vinyl ester resin is an epoxy resin" did you not understand. Or are you saying no-one ever built fiberglass boats by hand layup.

I learnt fiberglass construction from boatbuilders working for Fi-Glass NZ, although I think the company had a different name that far back. I was taught the epoxy and cloth layup techniques that were standard practice in the industry in those times. I am not going to try and remember build specs from over 40 years ago, look it up yourself.

[Sandy Frank]

20 years ago is about when everything started getting held together with glue. So depends on the make.

40 years ago wasn't the resin quality in a bad spot?

[john manning]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

could you please name some of the firms who built such boats? I'm not aware of any.

Jim

I will start with apologizing for my previous curt reply but really your question was nonsense.

40 Years ago the only boats being manufactured to a standard specification were trailer boats. Yachts were chosen by design but the construction was determined by the buyers requirements and budget. Consequently looking to a brand or manufacturer for a specific build type doesn't make any sense. Even two steel hulls from the same builder could have different characteristics.

[maine50]

Tartans Hulls & Decks Are Infused With Epoxy Modified Vinylester . They have been advertising "Epoxy" hulls construction at least 10-15 years. Also carbon masts.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by john manning

I will start with apologizing for my previous curt reply but really your question was nonsense.

40 Years ago the only boats being manufactured to a standard specification were trailer boats. Yachts were chosen by design but the construction was determined by the buyers requirements and budget. Consequently looking to a brand or manufacturer for a specific build type doesn't make any sense. Even two steel hulls from the same builder could have different characteristics.

Re your first reply: if you were meaning vinylester when you said epoxy, why didn't you say "vinylester"? Yes, VE is a modified epoxy, but most folks do not use the terms interchangeably. And even today, not so many production boats utilizing only VE... more often the outer few layers are VE for better osmosis resistance, and the remainder polyester to keep cost down.

Re "40 Years ago the only boats being manufactured to a standard specification were trailer boats.": What are you on about here? My Yankee 30, built in 1974, was hull number 123 out of around 150 built, and Yankee Yachts was a small time builder compared to Catalina, who had been building series of keel boats up to at least 38 feet in huge numbers by the early 80s (40 years ago). They were far from the only such firm.

Re "Yachts were chosen by design but the construction was determined by the buyers requirements and budget. Consequently looking to a brand or manufacturer for a specific build type doesn't make any sense" : This may have been true in the custom "one-off" trade, b ut was certainly not true in the production world, at least in the USA. Manufacturers offered up a line of designs for sale, and often had a list of options, including choice of hull color, but not a hell of a lot else related to the hull... especially not hull material and lay-up schedule. And the vast majority were polyester laminates, not epoxy. The only series built epoxy hulls I can recall were a few from Tartan, and they had a lot of issues with those hulls IIRC.

So when you advised the OP to seek out hulls laid up in Epoxy, I asked you to suggest a few names, both for the OP to consider and to increase my knowledge of the industry.

You say "but really your question was nonsense." I reckon that if anything was nonsense it was your answers. So, John, I accept your apology, but would suggest that in the future you not append apologies with an insulting caveat, for that kinda blunts the apologies edge.

Jim

Edit: I see from the preceding post that the Tartans were not truly epoxy laminates, but VE labeled as Epoxy. I ws not aware of that.

[john manning]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Re your first reply: if you were meaning vinylester when you said epoxy, why didn't you say "vinylester"? Yes, VE is a modified epoxy, but most folks do not use the terms interchangeably. And even today, not so many production boats utilizing only VE... more often the outer few layers are VE for better osmosis resistance, and the remainder polyester to keep cost down.

Re "40 Years ago the only boats being manufactured to a standard specification were trailer boats.": What are you on about here? My Yankee 30, built in 1974, was hull number 123 out of around 150 built, and Yankee Yachts was a small time builder compared to Catalina, who had been building series of keel boats up to at least 38 feet in huge numbers by the early 80s (40 years ago). They were far from the only such firm.

Re "Yachts were chosen by design but the construction was determined by the buyers requirements and budget. Consequently looking to a brand or manufacturer for a specific build type doesn't make any sense" : This may have been true in the custom "one-off" trade, b ut was certainly not true in the production world, at least in the USA. Manufacturers offered up a line of designs for sale, and often had a list of options, including choice of hull color, but not a hell of a lot else related to the hull... especially not hull material and lay-up schedule. And the vast majority were polyester laminates, not epoxy. The only series built epoxy hulls I can recall were a few from Tartan, and they had a lot of issues with those hulls IIRC.

So when you advised the OP to seek out hulls laid up in Epoxy, I asked you to suggest a few names, both for the OP to consider and to increase my knowledge of the industry.

You say "but really your question was nonsense." I reckon that if anything was nonsense it was your answers. So, John, I accept your apology, but would suggest that in the future you not append apologies with an insulting caveat, for that kinda blunts the apologies edge.

Jim

Edit: I see from the preceding post that the Tartans were not truly epoxy laminates, but VE labeled as Epoxy. I ws not aware of that.

Jim,

What you have identified is that the boat building industries of different countries work to very different conditions. In the 1970's in New Zealand a boat builder would be lucky to repeat a design above 35ft.

All I can contribute to this forum is my own experience and training, it is given honestly and I do not see why it should be interrogated by people with a different background.

The Tartan hulls addition in this string is a very good example of the 1970's "epoxy" resin hulls I remember. They were a fiberglass sandwich construction using a timber based core material. Tartan do that today using "vinylester" resin.

Because my first career (pharmaceuticals) meant that I had studied chemistry at university I see something different to you in the term vinylester resin. To me the structural resin is a cross linked epoxy. The styrene modification is there only to allow glass fibers to mould more easily. So I will apologise again, this time for being over-educated. [Please do not take that last comment too seriously.]

From different pasts we have different views of boat construction even though we have probably lived through much the same time.

[Hugo B]

Hi

To me the most important criteria are not about the age of the boat, but what kind of sailing you plan to do. Then you look for a boat that is in good condition irrespective of age, but always have a survey done before purchasing. For example, if you want to go offshore, in the US I would go for boats like Cape Dory (solid and cheap), Pacific Seacraft, Vancouver, Southern Cross or (expensive) Island Packet and Amel. But if you want to do only some coastal sailing perhaps a Cal, Beneteau etc. I am not into catamarans so I have no suggestions there.

Generally I would say that older boats are better made (there are exceptions of course), and newer boats are often lighter build but indeed may not show up as many age-related factors. So this balances out. Then it is a question of what is wrong with the boat. I would say in order of importance the engine and hull rate high and then close second is standing rigging. Whether you have good sails, a functioning galley and good electrics and navigation gear is still important but less so, because these things are not structural and easier to replace.

Structural defects take on an added importance if you don't buy a fibreglass boat. I personally would not go for steel and wood as both require constant maintenance. Aluminum is very nice but also very expensive, watch out for electrolysis. Steel and wooden hulls of course need of a lot of special scrutiny when buying. I would never buy a ferro-cement boat.

If you have a limited budget, I would look for a smaller boat because the price goes up just about exponentially with length. Then, for the same money you can buy something in much better condition. You are never going to find the same comfort cruising as you can have on land, so (for me at least) this is something to accept up front, which means that a somewhat smaller boat that is more seaworthy is definitely a worthwhile trade-off.

Anyway, that is my 2c worth.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by john manning

Jim,

What you have identified is that the boat building industries of different countries work to very different conditions. In the 1970's in New Zealand a boat builder would be lucky to repeat a design above 35ft.

All I can contribute to this forum is my own experience and training, it is given honestly and I do not see why it should be interrogated by people with a different background.

The Tartan hulls addition in this string is a very good example of the 1970's "epoxy" resin hulls I remember. They were a fiberglass sandwich construction using a timber based core material. Tartan do that today using "vinylester" resin.

Because my first career (pharmaceuticals) meant that I had studied chemistry at university I see something different to you in the term vinylester resin. To me the structural resin is a cross linked epoxy. The styrene modification is there only to allow glass fibers to mould more easily. So I will apologise again, this time for being over-educated. [Please do not take that last comment too seriously.]

From different pasts we have different views of boat construction even though we have probably lived through much the same time.

Sheesh, John, did you not notice that the OP is in California, not NZ? He isn't likely to be searching for a first boat in your lovely country, is he? By the 70s (let alone 40 years ago) the production boat industry was booming in the USA, but I still state that those boats were all polyester, not epoxy including those built by Tartan in that era. Their adventures with other polymers came somewhat later, I believe. (Just looked it up: began in 2002!)

I in no way mean to denigrate your post(s) or your experience with boatbuilding. Remember, all I asked was for the names of firms that built in epoxy that might be available the the OP... for his and my education. This is hardly "interrogating your experience and training" IMO.

And also, please don't think I'm knocking one-off boats or epoxy construction. After all, my personal choice for our current boat is epoxy/cedar composite, built by a shipwright and his wife here in Oz and definitely a one-off!. I just don't think there's much chance that the OP will find such a boat in California, at least anywhere near his price range.

And for the OP: sorry that I've driven this thread so far away from your subject. The question that instigated the drift was meant to increase your (and my) knowledge of boats that might be of interest to you. My turn to apologize.

Jim

[GBR134]

Originally Posted by john manning

Vinylester resin is a modified epoxy resin. It was invented in the late 1960's but did not become commonly used until after the 1970's. (At least that is the case where I live.)

I think you are mistaken - vinylester resin is much more similar to polyester resin than epoxy. I don’t believe that there were any production cruisers built in the 70s and 80s with epoxy hulls.