Hostile acts against cruisers underway in the Caribbean

[Kamen]

Thousands of hunters hit birds in flight with a shotgun. Not really much of a feat. Birdshot loses velocity rapidly however and won't carry a lot of energy at longer distances. You can step up to larger shot sizes, up to buckshot and even slugs. Impact is greater, but hitting the target gets more difficult due to the smaller number of projectiles in a shell.

[atoll]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, I have something to add: we often get to read about firearms being useless as motion at sea prevents any accuracy etc. etc. and I mostly just roll my eyes and ignore that.

However, we recently did a short offshore passage and took the opportunity for some live fire practice. Conditions were winds 15-20kts gusting 23 and waves 4-6’. We fired a 20-gauge pump shotgun and a full size 9mm service pistol. Results were stunning: at a distance of 100’ around the boat the shotgun absolutely dominates. We fired birdshot and could put man-sized impact patterns anywhere we wanted accurately. Even with just birdshot and only a 20-gauge caliber, what you see hitting the water would effectively end any attack from the open boats favored by most of these pirates.

With handgun at 100’ I am convinced we can hit a pirate as well but may need a couple shots. The force from a 9mm handgun in the hands of a practiced shooter is no joke. Our gun has a 19+1 round capacity which feels great even without spare magazine. Both me and my wife feel completely confident with a handgun for boat defense but the shotgun is at another level. If you can shoot reasonable groupings at a paper target at 100 yards with a .223 or .308 then you can defend yourself at sea on a moving boat with a shotgun. Also, you don’t need a 12-gauge.

we found the best policy was to take out the outboard engine first with rapid fire from the .223 or 12 ga solids,rather than aim at occupants,once they are bobbing engine less you can then turn around and pick them off from a safe distance, any thing bigger aim for the helmsman in the wheel house, if that fails the RPG is a game changer

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by atoll

we found the best policy was to take out the outboard engine first with rapid fire from the .223 or 12 ga solids,rather than aim at occupants,once they are bobbing engine less you can then turn around and pick them off from a safe distance, any thing bigger aim for the helmsman in the wheel house, if that fails the RPG is a game changer

But then I need to bring the .308 bolt action too...

[atoll]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

But then I need to bring the .308 bolt action too...

also useful for launching those rifle grenades if you have some handy

[Joka]

Hi again,

It seems that my previous questions and suggestions have gone unnoticed so I'd like to ask again (see quote below). I may not have presented it enough as a request for opinions, but I'd really value any input!

I totally understand the predominant point of view here of being armed and ready to kill to protect your family (although not everyone is as good a sniper as most of you apparently are when I read the comments)

I may be a mellow hippie liberal from a soft country that bans guns for personal use, but I personally despise the idea of taking a life, and to be the judge of who deserves to live or die.
After all, it's easy to feel a hero when killing pirates that are attacking you, but you never know what brought someone to bad doings. And when you start realizing the misery they've lived their life in, loosing their loved ones to war, famine, diseases while we were enjoying free healthcare, stable peace and strong economy, you're not always killing a dirty bloodthirsty a**hole that's so greedy he would do anything to stack more gold under his pillow. You may just as well be ending the life of a father and husband who after years of desperately trying hard to feed his family took a wrong turn, and ended up piracing to give them a chance to live.
It doesnt't excuse anything, but the lines between black and white are extremely blurred, and I don't think any of us deserves the right to judge who lives or die.

Of course, In a "you or me" situation I would not hesitate a second! We all would do what it takes to survive and protect.
But there is soooo much more that can be done to prepare against piracy than just stacking guns and get ready to kill... I feel it is a shame to not discuss alternatives that may be just as efficient.

So if some/any of you mind steering away from the subject of guns just the time to propose some alternatives and maybe give me your opinion on the ones I've exposed, this would be greatly appreciated. I really value your knowledge and experience, beyond all personal opinions, and I feel I could learn a trick or two that doesn't involve lethal weapons.

Thanks!

Joka

Originally Posted by Joka

Hi y'all,

Hope you don't mind if I sidetrack the conversation a little, I'm taking the opportunity as there's been a lot of interesting talk about piracy and defense in this post.

I won't go into the subject of carrying a firearm, which can save your life as much as it can seal your fate, and is completely up to personal feeling and skills.

But I was wondering if any of you have tried different alternative in case of passage attack...

Putting on a full mask and smearing my boat with bear maze then hiding in a tiny hidden panic shelter sounded like a good way to at least reduce chances of execution on a worst case scenario... Opinions?

Also, I took interest into smoke devices... Some can be homemade with simple household ingredients and create a huge cloud of smoke in no time. Sure it won't hide you, but it will surely raise confusion on the attacking boat! Firearms? If they are equipped, chances are they have been through gunfights and may not give up at the sound of a gun.
But a giant cloud of smoke like used by trained military sounds like a pretty efficient way of saying "wanna get me? Come, I'm ready for you!".
Bonus is you can colour the smoke red (more visible and also threatening), and if you really want to get offensive you can mix some capsicaine (used in bear maze) or just concentrated chilli oil within the fabrication process, and if they're close enough to board when you light these up they will cough their lungs out and lose vision, while you'll be conveniently planning your next step with a full mask on.
No bullets shot, no harm, and attack avoided.
But this is all on the paper theory that I will work thru and test later on, just before I enter risky waters. A huge bonus of that method is the smoke devices basically look like giant candles and as far as I know do not contain any hazardous products. So besides being very discreet to the eye of a customs inspections officer, I don't see why any country would seize them upon entry.
If interested, I could try and find the YouTube vid on how to make these. But it's commonly and safely diy made, look for July 4th DIY smoke or something.

And in the psycho killer vein, I love the fantasy of bursting out in the cockpit with a chainsaw and a hockey mask, but I'm more of a sneaky one.
I love the idea of dropping some homemade mines in the water!
Once again nothing too offensive but just a "warning shot".
Plan is to home-make some decent size "firecrackers" out of gunpowder, or even better some professionally available "flashbangs" in the special FX industry (would require a pyrotechnician certification to procure).
Just have to set up a remote, drop the thing in a floating jar and BOOM!!
I doubt that any chasing boat that first sees a smoke screen then multiple explosions raising geysers out of the sea would risk intercepting you further!
Once again, that's on the paper theory and I will probably face some real world walls... Starting off with customs!! Since Guy Fawkes, government's have grown wary of homemade explosive devices! Even making such devices in your home country can get you in huge trouble.

PS : if you decide to go the DIY way, be EXTREMELY CAREFUL!! Making a smoke device is safe as, but messing with explosives is not a joke...
I'll always remember our Special FX teacher and his hands burnt all over... A pretty good warning on pyrotechnics, and I'm sure he's actually lucky he still has them to work with!
So make extensive research on explosives handling safety practices, and ideally talk with a professional before you even consider this path (even static electricity can blow powder up)

If you have any other suggestions on alternatives to firearms I will be really interested, and any thoughts on my whacked out maniac defense plans are welcome

Stay safe, Fair winds and safe travels!

Joka

[Pete the Cat]

OK. Here is a true story: I was 80 miles out in the middle of the Gulf of Tehuanepec crossing (in flat calm!) under power. In the distance horizon behind us, we saw a panga running at high speed (do these guys ever go at any other speed?) toward us. I will admit I was frightened and went an got my flare gun and loaded it. They came speeding by us yelling something I could not understand (I speak some Spanish, but the noise was drowning him out) the guys circled back. I told my friend that they might be just scoping us out and that the next pass might be with weapons. Had I had a gun, I probably would have locked and loaded at this point. The panga came around again and slowed this time and the guys started yelling "Comida, comida". Oh, FOOD, the guys would like some food--OK they are fishing guys a long way from home in an area where you have to pick your weather very carefully even in a fast boat. I went down below and gathered some cookies and a bag of chips and tossed it to them. They took off in another circle and made another slow pass --this time they tossed a gorgeous fresh mahi mahi in our boat before jetting off into the horizon. I think you need to stay away from places of known danger (the reef off Honduras is one I avoid) but folks who think that carrying a weapon is a good idea have watched too many movies. You can imagine all the things that could have gone wrong here for everyone involved and there are stories that it has happened at the hands of trigger happy cruisers. Put yourself in this story and think about it.

[Joka]

Thanks for sharing this nice story, it sure puts things into perspective.
I remember hearing a guy on YouTube telling a similar story, where he was convinced he was chased under attack, when in the end they were only asking for food...
Funny how they don't realize how it would freak out most sailors!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Joka

Hi again,

It seems that my previous questions and suggestions have gone unnoticed so I'd like to ask again (see quote below). I may not have presented it enough as a request for opinions, but I'd really value any input!

I totally understand the predominant point of view here of being armed and ready to kill to protect your family (although not everyone is as good a sniper as most of you apparently are when I read the comments)

I may be a mellow hippie liberal from a soft country that bans guns for personal use, but I personally despise the idea of taking a life, and to be the judge of who deserves to live or die.
After all, it's easy to feel a hero when killing pirates that are attacking you, but you never know what brought someone to bad doings. And when you start realizing the misery they've lived their life in, loosing their loved ones to war, famine, diseases while we were enjoying free healthcare, stable peace and strong economy, you're not always killing a dirty bloodthirsty a**hole that's so greedy he would do anything to stack more gold under his pillow. You may just as well be ending the life of a father and husband who after years of desperately trying hard to feed his family took a wrong turn, and ended up piracing to give them a chance to live.
It doesnt't excuse anything, but the lines between black and white are extremely blurred, and I don't think any of us deserves the right to judge who lives or die.

Of course, In a "you or me" situation I would not hesitate a second! We all would do what it takes to survive and protect.
But there is soooo much more that can be done to prepare against piracy than just stacking guns and get ready to kill... I feel it is a shame to not discuss alternatives that may be just as efficient.

So if some/any of you mind steering away from the subject of guns just the time to propose some alternatives and maybe give me your opinion on the ones I've exposed, this would be greatly appreciated. I really value your knowledge and experience, beyond all personal opinions, and I feel I could learn a trick or two that doesn't involve lethal weapons.

Thanks!

Joka

Great Joka, we can all have our own opinions and be happy! I do wonder though how many of your friends you need to be see killed by pirates and other murderers before you stop worrying more about the well-being of these animals than your loved ones

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by atoll

also useful for launching those rifle grenades if you have some handy

I have the feeling we both served in the army around the same time

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pete the Cat

OK. Here is a true story: I was 80 miles out in the middle of the Gulf of Tehuanepec crossing (in flat calm!) under power. In the distance horizon behind us, we saw a panga running at high speed (do these guys ever go at any other speed?) toward us. I will admit I was frightened and went an got my flare gun and loaded it. They came speeding by us yelling something I could not understand (I speak some Spanish, but the noise was drowning him out) the guys circled back. I told my friend that they might be just scoping us out and that the next pass might be with weapons. Had I had a gun, I probably would have locked and loaded at this point. The panga came around again and slowed this time and the guys started yelling "Comida, comida". Oh, FOOD, the guys would like some food--OK they are fishing guys a long way from home in an area where you have to pick your weather very carefully even in a fast boat. I went down below and gathered some cookies and a bag of chips and tossed it to them. They took off in another circle and made another slow pass --this time they tossed a gorgeous fresh mahi mahi in our boat before jetting off into the horizon. I think you need to stay away from places of known danger (the reef off Honduras is one I avoid) but folks who think that carrying a weapon is a good idea have watched too many movies. You can imagine all the things that could have gone wrong here for everyone involved and there are stories that it has happened at the hands of trigger happy cruisers. Put yourself in this story and think about it.

Trigger happy cruisers? I don’t think they are legal gun owners, if they even exist. I haven’t met any in all the years cruising. Never heard nor read about even a single case where an innocent person was shot by a cruiser and very few cases where a pirate was shot.

We have locals coming by all the time, we never shoot them

[Stmurray62]

I think several are permitting an over load of testestorone influence your responses. The point is this fellow Mariner is looking for alternatives to avoid these “killing, gunslinging” events in the first place, which frankly is much more prudent, responsible and workable than espousing the mania of guns and killing. So, put the guns and mania away and come up with some realistic ideas and suggestions. For one, I would avoid most of the Central American coast (Atlantic side, not familiar with Pacicic side). For instance I am (April) delivering a boat from Florida to Panama. I’m sailing thru the Bahamas. With Turks as a possible fuel stop, making a right turn and heading towards Jamaica for another fuel stop, then onto Panama. This avoids most of the aforementioned hazardous areas. From some personal research, I don’t recommend any pleasure craft traversing the Central Ameriica coastline, not withstanding the Pirate issue, there is the strong northerly current flow, high winds (mostly easterly) and quick changing weather conditions.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Stmurray62

I think several are permitting an over load of testestorone influence your responses. The point is this fellow Mariner is looking for alternatives to avoid these “killing, gunslinging” events in the first place, which frankly is much more prudent, responsible and workable than espousing the mania of guns and killing. So, put the guns and mania away and come up with some realistic ideas and suggestions. For one, I would avoid most of the Central American coast (Atlantic side, not familiar with Pacicic side). For instance I am (April) delivering a boat from Florida to Panama. I’m sailing thru the Bahamas. With Turks as a possible fuel stop, making a right turn and heading towards Jamaica for another fuel stop, then onto Panama. This avoids most of the aforementioned hazardous areas. From some personal research, I don’t recommend any pleasure craft traversing the Central Ameriica coastline, not withstanding the Pirate issue, there is the strong northerly current flow, high winds (mostly easterly) and quick changing weather conditions.

That’s the exact route I took except we went from Panama to Florida. Yes, you can avoid most trouble, but like I posted, not all of it. I have no knowledge of friends who were killed ashore, with many living in big cities considered dangerous, but I have many friends who were killed by pirates. Not robbed but actually raped and/or killed. This has nothing to do with testosterone, my wife is an excellent shooter as well and never served in the military. We consider it equal to how you may consider a fire extinguisher... I assume you don’t feel those are not just for high testosterone level sailors? I don’t even know why you write such a thing... is it an insult?

[Seabeau]

Originally Posted by Stmurray62

I think several are permitting an over load of testestorone influence your responses. The point is this fellow Mariner is looking for alternatives to avoid these “killing, gunslinging” events in the first place, which frankly is much more prudent, responsible and workable than espousing the mania of guns and killing. So, put the guns and mania away and come up with some realistic ideas and suggestions. For one, I would avoid most of the Central American coast (Atlantic side, not familiar with Pacicic side). For instance I am (April) delivering a boat from Florida to Panama. I’m sailing thru the Bahamas. With Turks as a possible fuel stop, making a right turn and heading towards Jamaica for another fuel stop, then onto Panama. This avoids most of the aforementioned hazardous areas. From some personal research, I don’t recommend any pleasure craft traversing the Central Ameriica coastline, not withstanding the Pirate issue, there is the strong northerly current flow, high winds (mostly easterly) and quick changing weather conditions.

"the mania of guns and killing"? Pardon me but, self-defense is the absolute oldest of all human rights. Many of the worlds oldest navies began as an armed response to violent piracy. No pirate infestation anywhere on the globe was identified until it happened. Therefore, plot that unknown route.

[Stmurray62]

Guys, you’re totally missing the point: guns are NOT the answer/solutions and not a reasonable recommendation to AVOID the hazards.
Notwithstanding the FACT that not all countries are as open to guns as the USA. For instance, In Mexico, if u have a weapon on board, and they find it and they will: they will confiscate the boat and put u in jail: same goes for Belize, etc.

Btwthe testosterone statement was “an attempt at lightening up things”, yet the gun mania and defense of same prevailed.Come on, let’s get off the Gun thing and deal with the real issue, please???

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Stmurray62

Guys, you’re totally missing the point: guns are NOT the answer/solutions and not a reasonable recommendation to AVOID the hazards.
Notwithstanding the FACT that not all countries are as open to guns as the USA. For instance, In Mexico, if u have a weapon on board, and they find it and they will: they will confiscate the boat and put u in jail: same goes for Belize, etc.

Btwthe testosterone statement was “an attempt at lightening up things”, yet the gun mania and defense of same prevailed.Come on, let’s get off the Gun thing and deal with the real issue, please???

We already discussed the real issue: there is no valley of unicorns, bad people exist and even though they can mostly be avoided, there is a significant larger risk to encounter them while carefully cruising vs carefully living ashore. Those who will defend themselves are at a much lower risk than those who ask for mercy as evidenced by all the cases studied and it’s something that we need to deal with one way or another.

I absolutely disagree with your anti gun rhetoric because you can’t name a single country that doesn’t rely on guns for their safety. This should be the big clue that becoming proficient in their use and carrying them is the gold standard for security offshore as well as inshore where allowed. All you have to do inshore is comply with local laws and while Mexico is the toughest case to deal with, it is merely an inconvenience, not impossible.

Also, every country that I know allows their “good” citizens/residents to become sport shooters and gun owners; I’m pretty sure yours does as well.