FULL verses FIN

[Steve Pope]

Just like the anchor discussion, there is no one type fits all, we all have our preferences, quirks, and compromises, dreams, and OF course predudices. How booring this board would be if it was all so simple. After all when my centre board touches down I know it is time to check the depth sounder and or chart while I pull it up and head for deeper water.

[Joli]

A spade rudder can be built to any multiple of ABS you desire. Racing boats will build to a minimum while a cruising boat may build to 3 or 4 times ABS minimum. It is possible to build a spade rudder tough enough to require ripping the back of the boat off to loose it.

Full keel boats can be built to light scantlings just as fin keel boats can be built to heave scantlings. Design does not define strength.

Originally Posted by Kanani

Actually Alan, whether the boat is sea-worthy is just as important to a racer as it is to a cruiser. The big difference here is not strength in the racing boats vs cruising boats, it's the general purpose and use of each.

As we all know, every single boat made is just a different mixture of compromises. On racing boats, comfort gives way to weight, tracking ability gives way to manueverability etc.

There is really no way to justify buying a cruising yacht based on the atributes of any racing yacht and visa versa. They are 2 different vessels used for very different purposes.

I would say that anyone that would think that a cruising yacht with a spade rudder is just as safe as a cruising yacht with a fixed rudder, based on the fact that spade rudders are routinely used on racing boats, may be misunderstanding the fundementals of boat building and therefore doing themself a dis-service.

It would be sorta like saying, I'm going to put drag slicks on my family car because dragsters run them under very extreme conditions and they are good for over 200MPH. It makes no sence and it is comparing apples to oranges.

I agree with you. When talking cruising boats, racing boat examples are irrelevant IMO.

[Joli]

A slack bilge has a wine glass shape, heavy displacement.

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

Wow, this thread is more fiesty than the arguments of FC vs whatever discussions :-)
One comment Roverhi, can you translate please
What do you mean by the word "Slack". My english would use this word as lose or not tight. The scentance to me would mean to me that the bilge had lots of movement and I don't think that is what you meant.
Now in regards to the general discussion,
My opinion to all this is that at the mo is, no one is seeing the wood for all the tree's. The must be drawn a clear line to Fin boats designed specificly for racing as against those designed for cruising. Many of the issues of Fin Keels falling off and boats breaking in two etc etc, are because the boat has been made as light as possible for that race. The line, "if it didn't break, we made it too heavy" was a famouse one by some famouse racer, but can't remember who and what race. But I don't think we can suggest that Fin keels are weaker because...... and then use a racing boat as an example.

[S/V Elusive]

Two posts pulled because of: "Personal attacks on others will not be tolerated. Challenge others' points of view and opinions, but do so respectfully and thoughtfully. "

They added nothing to this thread. Remember folks, the topic is THE TOPIC ... not belittling or baiting each other. Thanks!

Thomas
Cruisers' Forum Moderator

[Wayne Kent]

Originally Posted by henryk

Their 1981 Morgan 46 last year ended up on the rocks in Marathon ,Fl. For three days sea was pounding her when she laid on her side ,throwing her against the rocks . What they did?
They pull her of ,towed back to St Pete ,fixed it and are sailing again living the dream . Now tell me that the any of those mass production boats would survive what Flying Pig went through ?

Am I wrong or isn't a Morgan a production boat? Cruising World (granted all the cruisers I know call it Charter World) has named Catalina as Crusing Yacht of the year, the older Catalinas we paper cups, not so any more.

[cburger]

This example just doesn't work for full vs fin argument. It's the captain's responsibility to stay off shore and to avoid collisions!!!
And that's part of the law of the sea. Driving a tank in traffic doesn't give one special privileges.

SATORI and the Perfect Storm

Take the time to go to the link and read the story, it will address your assumptions.

[Capt Hook]

Lots of interesting stuff here and I think it just goes to show that there is something for most people depending on what you want to get out of sailing. We've got an encapsulated long lead keel and shes a very heavy boat for her size. Slow in light airs but makes good speed when the wind gets up a bit. The advantages for us are that when the wind does start to get up she feels safe and gets on with the job. If we want a break for a meal together we heave to and she points about 45 deg off the wind and the waves just slip by as if by magic. When we anchor or take a swinging mooring we always have a quiet night in a blow when lighter boats dive around like demented spaniels. On the other hand going into a crowded marina on a busy weekend can be embarassing as when you need to go astern the boat just goes anywhere but where you want. We're happy with a long keel. We might get a less exciting ride but I know blokes who's wives won't sail any more because they've had a fright. Having said that, the bloke we bought our boat from was one of those people. He sailed with his wife to the Scillie Isles and got in trouble on the way back so it can happen in any boat.

[dcstrng]

Have enjoyed following this thread – although my experience is decidedly limited compared to many posting in the thread… plus, I’m probably the only one in the universe who has never been on a true fin keel boat, but from my limited experience, I’d guess that defect will persist…

But in my sailing, I find that I tend to like modified fin keel (ala, Irwin center cockpit styles, Brewer, etc…) that can actually reliably sit on it’s own keel for the larger the boat, with a tendency toward full keel (well, with a yacht style cutaway-forefoot) as the boats get smaller. Docking a bigger Irwin is dirt simple and with the aft hung, but reasonably protected rudder, the maneuverability will surprise many – I’ve talked non-sailing, pre-teens into dock so long as they’d follow instructions… but for smallish boats I like the sailing stability of the full keel, even though it is clearly a trade-off -- they aren’t as maneuverable as one might expect and are most certainly slower in certain airs – not to mention docking maneuvers need to be planned… Was intrigued by the efficiency of the true fin, but never cared for what looked like structural vulnerability of spade rudders or bolt on fins; however that is heavily laced with personal opinion and each has it’s place I suspect – depending on use and the expectations of the crew…

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Joli

A slack bilge has a wine glass shape, heavy displacement.

A “slack” bilge has a larger radius, and a gentle rounded curve (the “wineglass”), where a “hard” bilge has a smaller radius, and at tighter squarish curvature (often combined with a flatter bottom).

Goto pages 25 & 26: Understanding Boat Design ~ by Ted Brewer
Understanding Boat Design - Google Book Search

[windshadow]

If you will be cruising you will at some point have a soft grounding while looking to drop your hook, this is one place I feel a full keel is better. If you will be cuising were there are lots of crab traps a full keel is beter for deflecting thier lines less chance of hanging one on your prop or your rudder. Realy you have to ask your self what will you be using your boat for most of the time and go from there both full and fin have good points and bad but is one safer than the other I do not think so. good luck

[pjbsailing]

Originally Posted by rtbates

Ever sail upwind in a good seaway in a flatbottom fin keeler? I have and the pounding wasn't nice. This was a Hunter 34.

I went 75 miles, close hauled in 9 footers, 30 knots+ on Lake Ontario in a Hunter 34. One tack, dry as a bone, comfortable, and FAST. Same trip, a Beneteau bailed out, and an Island Packet arrived next day . Kidding, the Packet arrived 4 hrs later, in the dark. Must be they tacked quite often, but they were very comfortable I hear.

Full/Fin depends on the kind of sailing you're doing. Lot's of cruisers with both. I see fin keels in the ARC, and Carib 1500. Who makes a full keel anymore? IP, and who else?

PJ

[Capt Hook]

Northshore still make the Vancouvers. Very capable long keel boats. I've been lusting after them for ages.

[pjbsailing]

The Vancouver looks pretty nice.

Anyone know what this boat is? I never get to meet the owner, and nobody seems to recognize the make.

[Morgan Paul]

PJ
Check out this web site Hitching A Ride on the Great Lakes

[CharlieCobra]

My boat is 46 yrs old, wood covered with C-Flex, 39'-4" and weighs 7 tons NET. She has a full keel with a cut away forefoot and sails in heavy weather like a dream. Backing with a crosswind is a tossup as to which way she's gonna turn. She has a mind of her own and prop walk only works about half the time. She'll do 6 knots in 8 knots of breeze and 8 knots in 50 knots of breeze, regardless of the waves, unless we're beating and tracks upwind to within 35* of apparent. I didn't think I'd ever like an old woodie till she found me and find me she did.