A Good Surveyor Does Not Guarantee a Good Survey

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Julie Mor

Maybe I'm shooting for the stars but what if every buyer insisted on a clause that said something to the effect that anything found by the surveyor that the average boat owner should have known would require the owner to pay for the survey and other related inspection costs?

You know, something to compel the seller to disclose what he or she knows about the condition of their boat before the buyer forks out survey costs.

I will now duck for cover...

That's not far off what I have actually done. I flat out ask whether their is anything wrong with the boat that I should be aware of before engaging a surveyor - but to encourage honesty! I combine it with the points that:

a) the survey is to confirm the condition is as understood and not a negotiating tool - and therefore if nothing substantive revealed the offer price will be the sale price as have allowed for any known defects / upgrades needed or wanted (and it is expected that the boat will be in a condition related to it's age - therefore a survey "revealing" that a 20 year old hull is not factory fresh perfect won't be a surprise );
b) that a few problems (or even certain major problems!) are not an automatic deal breaker, as long as I know in advance and have factored into my offer.
c) if the survey throws up anything that was not disclosed but which was patently obvious an owner would have known about then very likely I would walk on the basis I would assume their were other things not disclosed that remain unspotted.

I have never tried to get the Vendor to sign something on penalty of paying for lift and survey on the basis that few (if any) would........but could I guess include a sheet within the contract listing disclosed faults (but vendor doing that a double edged sword for the buyer).

[boatpoker]

[QUOTE=Dave0549jv;1299761]I would like to amend a statement I made a few months ago. It was something along the lines of "I'm happy with the survey and surveyor I had, and I'm glad I spent the money."

In the last 2 months I've discovered several things that the guy missed, QUOTE]

Sorry you had this experience. One of the tips I offered in the link in my last post .....

9. Ask your dock mates who they used and if they were satisfied. If they were still satisfied a year after the survey you might have found the right surveyor.

[Capt Phil]

A good marine surveyor is one who has great references from satisfied customers, has a wealth of experience surveying vessels of the make and model that you are interested in buying and is competitively priced.
There aren't any guarantees in the boating business except you should try and minimize your exposure to a safety or financial disaster.
Previous posters have stated what should be obvious but a question that is surprising not asked of either the broker or the owner is... 'what defects are you aware of?'
If they say... 'not a thing,' I'd be inclined to walk. Every boat I've sold (upwards of a dozen), I've pointed out the good, the bad and the ugly. Comments like... 'if I were to keep this boat the first thing I would do is A, the second is B, etc. Not only are you providing full disclosure, you are also building a reputation as a straight shooter. I have had new owners call me up a year after the sale to ask my opinion about a particular problem they have run into. Sometimes I can help, other times no, but it builds good will from the outset.
So while a good surveyor doesn't guarantee you will get a solid boat, it does minimize your problems. Just another of my opinions. Phil

[Heart of Gold]

Ya know, buying a boat is not that much different than buying a house in that you can write anything you want into the offer to purchase with conditions, such as financing, passing the inspection, if your spouse approves, etc. In these times its pretty much a buyers market so you probably won't find too many sellers not willing to adhere to the conditions of an offer if they are reasonable, even to the point of performing a repair at their cost before the sale is complete. I've seen it. Also, if you hire a registered professional surveyor, sometimes they will have insurance to cover major misses as my friend with rotting motor mounts found when he tried to resell his power boat. A sale fell through because of them and he went back to his surveyor and presented his case as they were not noted in his report. The mounts were rebuilt at the surveyors expense. Now I can't remember if the last survey he had was for insurance or what but I was surprised.

[Julie Mor]

Originally Posted by David_Old_Jersey

I have never tried to get the Vendor to sign something on penalty of paying for lift and survey on the basis that few (if any) would........but could I guess include a sheet within the contract listing disclosed faults (but vendor doing that a double edged sword for the buyer).

In the YBAA contract, paragraph 11, if the seller defaults, the seller becomes liable for reimbursing the buyer for survey costs. The verbiage could be construed as meaning the immediate costs all the way to travel and hotel expenses. That's where I got the idea.

If I was selling a boat, I'd want the new owners to enjoy boating as much as I do. I'd hate to think I ruined anyone's dream. I couldn't think of being anything but totally honest and upfront. I love sailing too much and want the world to know what I do.

Call me a dreamer, I'm okay with that.

Dave, thanks for the itemization you gave regarding disclosure. Very useful!

[Dulls]

Unfortunately you need a surveyor for insurance. From watching my boat being surveyed i dont think the insurance company or the owner gets a good deal. In Australia just about anyone can become a surveyor. There does not seem to be any independent standard. You pay your money and you take your chances. The fact that you would use a good surveyor for purchase and a poor one for insurance speaks volumes about the way this circus runs.
Once you have owned a boat for a while you have an idea of what to look for but if you are new to boating then it can be confusing. I think if you know someone who has sailed alot then get them to look over the boat for you. If it seems ok then you would get the survey and who knows you might get a good one...

[OceansFive]

Originally Posted by Dulls

Unfortunately you need a surveyor for insurance. From watching my boat being surveyed i dont think the insurance company or the owner gets a good deal. In Australia just about anyone can become a surveyor. There does not seem to be any independent standard. You pay your money and you take your chances. The fact that you would use a good surveyor for purchase and a poor one for insurance speaks volumes about the way this circus runs.
Once you have owned a boat for a while you have an idea of what to look for but if you are new to boating then it can be confusing. I think if you know someone who has sailed alot then get them to look over the boat for you. If it seems ok then you would get the survey and who knows you might get a good one...

When I bought my boat in Ontario, Canada, I had to get a survey for insurance. cost $800. Value? $0. I know he never even looked at the engine and I have mY doubts that he ever went aboard. Months later I found the previous owner's survey from the same surveyor. It was identical! Needless to say I found numerous problems that the surveyor never mentioned - such as NO limber holes in the stringers ( pretty big deal on a steel boat!).

[thruska]

Not to be a smartass, but what the heck is an average boater ?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Kuan Yin

When I bought my boat in Ontario, Canada, I had to get a survey for insurance. cost $800. Value? $0. I know he never even looked at the engine and I have mY doubts that he ever went aboard. Months later I found the previous owner's survey from the same surveyor. It was identical! Needless to say I found numerous problems that the surveyor never mentioned - such as NO limber holes in the stringers ( pretty big deal on a steel boat!).

Hey ! I know that guy ... we call him "Drive by Bill".

[thruska]

Hey boatpoker, insurance got a surveyor to settle a claim we made. They paid for haulout and survey. They will not give us a copy. Is that standard practice.
Yeah and they all but condemned the boat after they paid out to fix it, go figure. Many questionable practices tween the yard and the adjuster. Now on 3rd claim handler, all buck passers.
And we got full coverage on a 1969 boat w/o a survey. Yup, Progressive! Just don't expect to get satisfaction when making a claim

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by thruska

Hey boatpoker, insurance got a surveyor to settle a claim we made. They paid for haulout and survey. They will not give us a copy. Is that standard practice.
Yeah and they all but condemned the boat after they paid out to fix it, go figure. Many questionable practices tween the yard and the adjuster. Now on 3rd claim handler, all buck passers.
And we got full coverage on a 1969 boat w/o a survey. Yup, Progressive! Just don't expect to get satisfaction when making a claim

Yup, pretty much standard practice, they paid for the report and as long as they abide by the terms of the policy they don't owe you another thing.

I'd be really suspicious of any underwriter that would provide a policy on a 45 year old boat without a survey .... you sometimes do get what you pay for.

You can if you so choose hire your own surveyor to dispute their position. its usually is not too difficult to find someone who can blow the doors off an adjuster as adjusters are not often qualified surveyors..

[Capt Phil]

Originally Posted by thruska

Not to be a smartass, but what the heck is an average boater ?

Me... Phil

[thruska]

After reading your posts, Phil.
You are way above average!

[thruska]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Yup, pretty much standard practice, they paid for the report and as long as they abide by the terms of the policy they don't owe you another thing.

I'd be really suspicious of any underwriter that would provide a policy on a 45 year old boat without a survey .... you sometimes do get what you pay for.

You can if you so choose hire your own surveyor to dispute their position. its usually is not too difficult to find someone who can blow the doors off an adjuster as adjusters are not often qualified surveyors..

The surveyer was an associate surveyer for IMS, THEY ONLY DO WORK FOR INSURANCE COMPANIES. The Progressive guy actually told us he didn't want us talking to him. Wtf? We ain't done with these sobs yet!

[BandB]

Originally Posted by thruska

The surveyer was an associate surveyer for IMS, THEY ONLY DO WORK FOR INSURANCE COMPANIES. The Progressive guy actually told us he didn't want us talking to him. Wtf? We ain't done with these sobs yet!

If you get into litigation the survey is certainly discoverable.